Recently a very interesting discussion began on the main Rocket board. At least one Chinese poster called China a capitalistic country with a smoke screen of Marxism or communism. He said Marxism is still taught in the schools. but no one pays attention. I found this very interesting. I remember roughly 20 years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to a Russian language professor who was a friend of mine. He had just returned from Russia where he went to keep up his Russian. He told me that it was interesting to see that nobody including relatively high Communist Party officials he had talked to believed in Marxism or communism, but they would only admit that privately if they trusted you. I also posted an article that second level Chinese leaders were in Britiain exploring a possible transition to a British style labor party. Is the Chinese Communist Party about to collapse or call it a day?
It's probably a good thing that Chinese poster made those remarks via an anonymous Internet post instead of using a bullhorn while standing outside of Tiananmen Square. The consequences of the latter action are all anyone needs to know about the Chinese government's dedication to totalitarianism.
I don't think you can have capatilism without democracy. Business can not operate openly. Their economy is becoming westernized and it will continue to do so now that they have joined the WTO. The economy will give the people more freedoms and this will be the basis for the change of the government. The Soviet Union only lasted 74yrs (1917-1991), The People's Republic of China will be lucky to last that long (1949-Present). The people in power will get old and be replaced and eventually they will be forced to change the government. Good Reads on Capitalism in China http://www.workerspower.com/wpglobal/chinarestorationwp248.html http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/apr02/38773.asp http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134448582_chinabiz05.html Some interesting stuff on the Tiananmen Square protest in 1989 http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/documents/index.html#1-6 The Fall of the Soviet Union (failed coup of August 1991) http://www.russianet.ru/~oldrn/history/coup.html Some good Chinese Political Cartoons
wink3cat5, excellent post. very informative. I just scanned the article from the Milwaukee Sentinel Journal. A very informative article about the complex forces at work. Will comment further after more study of that and the other posts and or cartoons. Couldn't help think that it is very interesting about how the typical pattern of development is occurring with displaced peasants moving to the cities, finding contruction jobs etc. Very nice for the Chinese and the future of world peace. However, as many environmentalists have worried about, what are we going to do when the Chinese all insist on driving Lincoln Navigarors and other vehicles that get 14 mpg. Tough, but interesting issues.
It's startling to see Glynch extolling the virtues of China when he's supposedly Mr Left Wing on this board and a prominent supporter of civil liberties.
timing, I'm not extolling the virtues of China. I'm hoping that the Communist Party collapses. I'm praising their development towards democracy. It is just more accurate to see progress where it is being made. Commie China bad, bad, bad in all ways, just doesn't reflect the complexities as China moves toward a new system.
China is not a democracy, though hopefully it's headed that way. It's a sort of dictatorship, but not a communistic one. You can't have communism and capitalism at the same time. China and many other nations has capitalism without democracy so it's pretty obvious that that's possible. Just to try and straighten things out about communism. IMO there's two meanings of the word communism: 1. The original theoretical communism that never really been practiced because it's very hard to achive. All attempts have failed gravely and with terrible consequesis. But this really is a very democratic system, perhaps more so than patlamentarism. 2. What was practised by the regimes in the Soviet Union and China (not now though). Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism was basically dictatorships with planned economy and without privat owning. Something like this is practised in North Korea today and has become the "communism" that most people know. To me it seems that people in general and in the US in particular only know of the second of those meanings, and often in an propagandisticly twisted way.
You're right, we've misjudged North Korea. Say-- have you been watching Nightline the past few evenings?
Are you talking to me? What do you mean? edit: btw, I've not been watching Nightline. Edit: I think you've misunderstod me.
The Chinese communist party will probably make Karl Marx choke had he seen those communists friendly shaking the hands of IBM, Intel, Nokia's ..... CEOs, while eyeing their pockets thinking how many jobs would their investment creates, how much tax would they pay, and how many more automobiles for the government officials can be bought. The designated transportation vehicle for the high ranking government officials is Audi A6, sold in China at about 70000 US dollars. That's one of the reasons that no one wants communism anymore, driving an nice car simply beats reading some boring Marxism works, knowing that the utopia promised will never come true. As for me being prosecuted for speaking something that the government and people in China knows perfectly well, I am actually waiting for it to happen. Look at those dissidents like Wei Jing Sheng, they say things bad about the government, thrown into jail, then go abroad to countries like America, becoming the hero for democracy and freedom, and open their mouths for money then live a happy and dandy life. Not too bad a way to make a living huh? The thing is, what I posted is probably not good enough to make myself that kind of a figure, but I appreciate the concerns aroused out it. One important sidenote is, there is numerous instances in newspapers, TV and radios that the young people, elites or normal workers, referring themselves as Shao Zi, which means "little bourgeous(spelling?)", it's the middle income people who has some capital but not enough to be a capitalist, a class that Marxism placed just under capitalists in order of social evilness. One of the revolution slogans was "eliminating the bourgeous(spelling)". It's funny how those people referring themselves as Shao Zi without even realizing the utmost danger it could raise if it's said 20 years ago. If they are not being prosecuted calling themselves a member of capitalism, why should I? An interesting trend in China is that some fiction writers want heir works to be banned by the government. That way their works will attract so much more attention as the public wants to know why it's banned. They will go buy copies, legal or illegal, regardless of government's banning. Quite a fast way to get famous. The point is, I don't give a damn to calling China what she really is, nor should the government, as long as I don't call president Jiang Zhe Ming a mo**erf**ker, which he is not, I will be fine.
Panda, very interesting comments from China. My question is do you think that China is about to switch to a more democratic system? What is keeping the rulers (Communist Party) in power? Is the army still supporting them? Here is a very interesting story suggesting that Chinese officials near the top of the bureaucracy wish to convert to a British Labor type of party? Chinese CP to become a democratic party?
Glynch: The army of Liberation will always support the Chinese communism party, it was built for that purpose since day one. Not only that Jiang Zhe Ming is the Chairman of the communism party, he is also the chief commander of the army. The reason why the Chinese people support their government is not complex. Living so many years in poverty under real communism, they are tired of the low living standard. Some of the communists(about 80 millions people in China are members of the party) also lost their faith in Marxism. They complied with the people's common desire to get richer, to live a better life, they realized communism is not going to cut it. So they adopted the capitalistic way to economic developement. They didn't spell it out word by word, but their action says it all. The Chinese government has done a good job developing the economy in the last 20 years. Take last year for example, while the world economy was sluggish, China still enjoyed a 7% growth in GDP. Why should the Chinese denounce their government while the majority's chief desire for better living conditions has been met? For instance, it's so hard to find even a taxi 20 years ago in Beijing, and now every 12 family out of 100 in Beijing owns their own cars. The direction of going capitalistic is not an natural occurence, but an engineered approach promoted by the all too well known former ruler Deng Xiao Ping himself since 1978. Mr.Deng formalized the basic direction of China in an important party meeting that year. Every Chinese knows his famous slogans by heart such as "No matter white cats or black cats, the cat that catches mice is the good cat." , read, "doesn't matter it's communism or capitalism if it developes the economy". Or "let some people get rich first" , read, " the principle of social equality in Marxism is not important anymore". For his courage to carry out these changes, especially just after the craziness of the cultural revolution, and move into the direction for which nearly every Chinese is grateful, he is hailed as the "chief engineer of China's reform and opening.", and he will always has a special place in the Chinese modern history. My feeling is that political changes towards being more democratic are slowly occuring in China. For one, public hearings on prices are sometimes held to gather people's opinions. If that's not significant enough, there is a village in the Southern China went through an election for its governor by direct voting last year. Whether that election is fixed is unknown, but the mere permission of such elections speaks volumes. However, a drastic change is not going to happen until the majority of Chinese feel the burning desire to improve their social and political life, after their economic expectations are largely met, and they feel the country is strong and stable enough to go into major political reform, as the collapse of the USSR is something the Chinese took lesson from. That day for political reform is not likely to come, to my gut feeling, in the next ten to fifteen years, depending on how fast China's economy developes. As to the transformation to British Labour party, it's possible to happen if the above conditions are met, but I guess now the revelant people are just researching and exploring options, for what exact political pattern China will really employ in the future is by no means to be set now.
Can you have a TRUE democracy in a capitalistic society? no. . . True Capitalism runs counter to most forms of government. Rocket River
I often theorize about what is capitalism and who are the ultimate CAPITALISTS: i.e. those who maximize personal benefit and utilize different strategies to maintain their competetive advantage I could reasonably see a Monarch or Dictator as the ULTIMATE capitalist, though society falters as a whole, they increase their personal finances immeasurably and do it in a scenario in which they exploit the working man and market their ideals and enforce them to the extent. What is marketing? Forcing ideals and fads on people by immersion in advertisements and convincing tales and celebrity endorsements all coercing an individual to buy a product or act in a certian way. Isn't that what they do in concentration camps? I see a true "capitalist" as doing everything to increase financial leverage and power. If he controls the laws, the people and the country, then he has manipulated the system that controls his finances and made himself the controler of many outside forces that most capitalists call the form of risk that cannot be eliminated. Strange, yes I know.....but gets you thinking!
