Rockets want Ming even if it means waiting a couple of years

glynch, I wasnt aware that Rudy was impressed with Ming against the Dream Team. All Ive read is that Rudy has coached against Ming when he coached Dream Team. Ive never read a quote from Rudy T saying something to the effect of "Yao Ming showed me that he can play effectively play against NBA competition based on this game against the Dream Team."

That game you reference tho serves more to highlight the questions than provide answers for Ming. Yao basically showed that he has trouble guarding the frontline interior big men in the NBA as he got into quick foul trouble. I dont understand how this really answers anything. People that want to bring up Yao's questions usually use this game as a tool; I havent really seen it as a way to discuss his strengths.

Yao Ming has a nifty little offensive game no doubt. He has good offensive skills no doubt. I have never denied any of these things. My questions are still whether Yao will get pushed around by NBA caliber frontcourt players esp the good ones. These are legitimete questions that have been raised. Our frontline is soft, and I just dont see how having two good shot blockers will make a difference if they pushed around like rag dolls.

 

China's soccer team put up a good fight today against Brazil. They may have lost big but they actually had some nice attacks and touches. I'm rooting for then to win a game just to get the country excited about world sports.

 

Achebe, your completely twisting the point Im trying to make. First off, mar1juana is not anywhere near the problem of cocaine or heroine. The Odom situation is nowhere comparable to the druggies in the 80s. mar1juana is not addictive like these other drugs, and its not something that will cause Odom's career to be in jeopardy. I dont see it as a reason to not acquire an excellent all around talent like Odom.

Also, yes we need a center, but we need a tough banger. The Rockets frontline is soft if you arent aware of this fact. Look, I have never said anywhere in my argument that Yao Ming is going to be a total bust. Never have. NBA teams loves his all around offensive skills no doubt about it. What exactly do you expect them to come out and say? "Well Ming showed a nice all around offensive game but we're not really sure whether he can body up against NBA frontcourt players or get position against them."

A point was brought up by HP that since there arent many good centers in the NBA, my main reason for wanting a tough guy next to Griffin is to protect him from being abused. This is not false at all as I stated in the other thread. I would be a whole lot more receptive to getting Ming if we had a tough Ben Wallace type in this frontcourt instead of Griffin but we dont. The reason I would rather keep Griffin and not trade him instead is b/c he isnt going to fetch in a trade what this #1 selection appears to able to fetch.

 

MManal, you don't think that a rookie Ming can play as well as an old anemic Hakeem in 1999 and 2000?? Yao will put up those kind of numbers at a minimum. As far as Walt's hot hand in the second half of that season, who's to say the #15 draft pick or TMo won't have the same kind of impact?? Add in the development of the young players and the addition of Griffin and the Rockets in 2002-03 are better than the 1999-00 team.

 

THC is stored in the fat cells of the body. The area it is mostly stored in is the brain. Thus it slows down the brain's ability to think as quickly as normal. For chronic smokers like Odom, it actually takes almost a year of abstinence to get completely out of the fatty cells. Chronic weed tokers are lathargic and don't have their typical reflexes. Is chronic pot use by an athlete a problem? I certainly think so. Chroic use of any drug, including alcohol, destroys the body and the mind.

 

Mmanal,

When I start a thread about being tired of losing, I mean it.

I think the Rockets would win faster with Miller then with Francis, but I also think that Francis MAY be a lot better then Miller some day.

So, if we are going to have to wait on Steve and Cat to learn to play defense and learn to pass the ball, then why not take Ming and let him grow along with them?

I would argue that Ming is already mentally farther along on the team aspect of basketball then most players coming into the NBA, and this can only help accelerate the Rockets getting better.

DD

 

MManal, I'll cut this short b/c I have to go outside at some point today, but I'll note... that if memory serves, that you hyped Taylor and Collier's additions a few years ago.

Though neither of them panned out up to what I read in your expectations (unless you were shooting for the sidewalk) I think that Ming has all of that ability... great shooter (who actually can rebound) and who will actually stretch the offense. As far as his passing abilities go... whoa, I really do not think that the bruiser power forward I pined for last year, in opposition to Maurice, is as big of a deal.

Aside from conjuring up images of Mo picking for Francis as Yao passes from the high post I should note that we're talking past one another. Lamar Odom is one of those things you do when you dare to underachieve. Ming is in the line of sight for fans that aspire to greatness. I could care less about a banger right now. Webber certainly doesn't bang. Bibby doesn't bang. Peja doesn't bang. Hell, Odom doesn't bang. Hell, Odom doesn't add a damn bit to his Clippers' team. Williams of course completes that team. I'm rambling, but I certainly cannot see your point of view.

Is the glass half empty or half full? Do you underaspire to add the Maurice Taylors and the Lamar Odoms to your team, or do you ponder a day of Ming dropping 50 points, 22 rebounds and 6 blocks on Elden Campbell.

In three years Shaq will probably be retired, as will Dike, as will Zo. Duncan will perhaps be Ming's only competition left in the NBA. He is the future of this franchise. I see it. But I aspire to the greatness that a 7'5" Center, that can actually shoot, promises.

 

GregM,

There is no way that Yao Ming is going to produce in his rookie year anything near to what Hakeem did during that chunk of the 47-35 season. No way. Hakeem was producing 15-10 like it was nothing for the stretch of time the Rockets made their run and providing a solid defensive presence down low. That one stretch of time was a COMPLETE night and day difference from the rest of his season. Also, I think you are completely forgetting how scalding hot Wizard was in that same stretch. He was making 3 pointers like they were layups. It is rare for a No 15 pick to contribute anything remotely near that so quickly. Also, that season, the Rockets were easily able to run complete guard isos to get shots b/c the zone was not implemented yet.

On the issue of mar1juana wearing away at your reflexes and brain cells. Do we really know whether or not Odom smokes it as reqularly as you are saying? I dont claim to be a drug specialist by any manner; I am going by what info I have gathered by asking around, and the consensus I got is that this mar1juana thing isnt that huge of an issue as some fans make it out to be. If it was cocaine or heroine then we should be concerned. Also, on your comment about alcohol. Explain to me how this didnt have a real bad effect on Barkley's brain and reflexes long term as an athlete? It prevented him from getting into peak physical condition but didnt effect his actual basketball talent.

 

Achebe,

Ok obviously your not seeing my point of view, and Im not seeing yours. I did hype the acquisitions of Collier and Taylor, and I still feel that Taylor was and is a smart acquisition for this team. I still feel Collier's skills fit very well on this team, but the problem is that I may have overestimated his lateral quickness and quickness overall to play at the NBA level. Its still too early tho to tell, I wouldnt rule out Collier yet. The main thing is that I want bruisers in the frontcourt to go with our skill player. Ive consistently stated that you need both bruisers and skill players. You cant have all of one type. Thus, I like Griffin and Taylor on this ball club but feel we need a bruiser or two in addition to them even if it limits your offensive options some. At the time we got Taylor you wanted a bruiser and now you dont b/c you are dreaming of some team that can score 105 PPG like the Dallas Mavericks. The Mavs have zero toughness in their frontcourt and thus cant make it over the top in the postseason.

As far as the Kings go, a common misconception in the media is that they dont play defense. The Kings big men are very adept at operating out of the high post, but one thing is for sure, they DONT get pushed around on defense. Divac, Pollard and Webber are very underrated defenders and did about as good a job as you can at this stage against Shaq. I dont see Ming doing that.

I dont ever see a day when Ming will dominate the league like you are saying. He'll get a lot of hype and a lot of attention, but this Rockets team wont be able to make it to the top of the mountain imo.

You keep repeating that you'd rather have a franchise center than a franchise small forward. Obviously, we all would. However, Yao Ming is NOT a franchise center and wont be imo, thats why Im having this disucssion.

 

14-9 is what I see from Ming as a rookie. Add in Cato's improvement this past year and the team's better at the center position, IMO. As far as Yao on the defensive end, who's going to destroy him at the center position? Shaq and Zo? That's 6 games. All of these scrub centers in the league are not going to push him around with his lower body strength.

As far as a rarity of a #15 pick producing his frist season, it's even harder for a 2nd round pick to do so like Mobley. Or take a look at Dickerson's production his first year. This year's draft is deep to 15 and if the team takes Nachbar, he's believed to be the most NBA ready of all the prospects.

I would say getting caught by the league 4 times would be a gigantic sign that his pot intake is chronic. I agree that pot isn't as detrimental as blow or any opiates but for an athlete pot can have a huge impact.

With Barkley's drinking, you mean to tell me he wouldn't have been better without all of those huge calorie intakes, hangovers and late nights with little sleep?

 

MManal- Preach it preacher.......I feel the same way you do with regards to the Rox needing a strong banger to protect our finesse players. Give me a Bill Laimbeer type or a Rodman who isn't afraid to muscle up under the basket on defense and who just takes boards away from people by force. Everyone says that trading the pick is the conservative, p ussy way out but if everyone is saying take Ming take Ming then I believe that the opposite is true. Either way, let him be some else's project and give me Odom. We can turn this pick into a very deep squad, and it seems like the NBA is turning into an up tempo league which makes Ming more of a liability then a savior.

 

GregM,

I dont see anyway Yao is 14-9 his rookie yr, not a chance. I see him developing into 15-7 type player after 3-4 yrs seasoning. The player he is compared to most (Rik Smits) didnt produce like that immediately. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. It seems to the that pro-Yao people think he will start off with a ROY type season then go on to become a franchise center. The anti-Yao people feel he'll start off slow and with some patient development become a good but not great center. From what Ive read, even scouts and teams that like his skills concede that Ming will take time to develop and will not walk in and dominate. The word project has been used with him on more than one occassion.

Also, my question about Barkley was not whether or not alcohol prevented him from achieving his full potential. Obviously it prevented him from achieving that. My question is do you really think it had damaging affects on his brain and reflexes like you seem to think. The adverse affects from all his drinking showed up in his lack of great physique, but Barkley was/is still a very bright guy that had excellent reflexes and ability to read flights of the ball which showed up in his dominant rebounding even late in his career.

 

The only thing I worry about them waiting on Ming, is the sharks can make ming wait another year, so the bulls can draft him the following year. Ming sounds like a good kid, so I hope he'll just wait for clearance with the team that drafts him first.

*****

MManal, your main concern is we'd be too soft with a griffin ming frontcourt, but I think a banger is someone we can get in the draft later or FA, IMO a role player to me. If that's your main concern, then just draft ming, and sign an enforcer. Don't build your stars around your role players, you fill your role players to compliment your stars.

When you have a chance to take a potential franchise center, you take it. Don't settle to be safe. If Ming lives up to his hype, we are final contenders year after year. If he fails, at least we dared to be great. With Odom's addition, I agree we'd probably make the playoffs barring some major fluke, but I still don't think we can beat the lakers, esp in the next few years with shaq there.

My goal is winning the finals, finishing second means nothing to me. If Ming's learning curve is 3-4 years, I'm more than willing to wait, because shaq is still going to be around for a few more years.

 

Yup, UT Baller I agree. The anti-Ming people are way in the minority. What really bothers me is something I heard on 610. A caller called in and said that he approached Carroll Dawson at a Comets game and voiced his opinion that the Rockets should not draft Yao Ming. This is how the rest of the conversation went (not exact quote):

Rich Lord: "So what was Dawson's response?"

Caller: "He gave me a dirty look."


This is absolutely sickening imo. The Rockets arent even willing to look at the other side anymore.

 

I think the Rocks have a good idea of who can translate their game to the pro-level, esp regarding Euros. They wanted Dirk. They wanted Gasol and Radman last year. I'm sure the comp in those leagues is far inferior to the NBA level as well. If they felt it was a "no-brainer" immediatly when they recieved their pick, then they must feel confident of his TALENT too. And I have never once heard them talk about getting Ming because it will fill the seats(in fact, I haven't ever heard that as a reason for aquiring any player, it's usually about improving the team).

Your bottom line may come true. It is possible the Rocks may not make the playoffs next year. But I disagree with your implication that this team is godawful even if healthy. If healthy(even w/o Ming + #15) I think this team would be in the mix for a playoff spot. They would likely fall short because of being in the WC, but they wouldn't be scraping the bottom of the barrell like last year. Add in Ming + #15, and I think the Rocks would be that much closer to being in the playoffs, with 3 important pieces still developing(SF, Griff, Ming).

I think it's completely unfair for you to write off Ming as not having the capability to make an impact his rook year. Even as a backup C, he would have a good impact on the team imo.

Bottom line: Odom + pf/sf prospect gives us a better chance to make the playoffs next year and end up as a fringe team that is batted out of the playoffs with great frequency. Ming + gives us a better chance to be a championship team when(not if) we make it to the playoffs, which could be as soon as next year.

 

rf34, if I thought Ming is a franchise center in the making I wouldnt even be having this argument. I just dont think he is for reasons Ive already stated. Even if you do sign a banger at some later date, the problem is if you commit to Ming; Eddie and Ming will get majority of time on the floor together esp in crunch time situations. Thats what I dont like. I dont want to be in the postion Dallas is in, that they have great offensive talent but cant make it to over the top with Raef and Dirk up front. You cant draft Ming and have your long term plan not be to play Ming and Griffin together b/c those are your two main frontcourt pieces. If they cant play together defensively, one has to go, and I sure as hell dont think Eddie is going to fetch this kind of return in a trade.

 

To me, it comes down to this-

I don't see Griffin and Ming being able to work well. Both will have to figure out how to overcome the same problem on defense-being able to hold their position, and neither have the "banging" mentality. You can get away with a PF that has some trouble doing so against the Malone-types of the league if you have a sturdy center that can slide over to PF to handle these types. Has Rudy ever put together an effective zone? Was he ever a college coach? Minnesota has a guy who wrote the book on zone, and a front-line tailor made for zone action: an ultra-quick guy who's 7'1'' with long arms, another fairly quick 6'10'' guy (Joe Smith), and a lane clogging 7'0'' (Nesterovic), but there zone gets busted come playoff time.

Notice why Dallas lost? Dallas put 2 7 footers that could run the floor, shoot the lights out from 3, block shots (and Dirk could handle and pass), an all-star type in his prime in Michael Finley,`an all-star PG (Nash), and another former all-star PG (NVE), because they still lacked the toughness. They could come off the bench with a 7'1'' shooter, and a 7'6'' shotblocker, and skill player galore but it wasn't enough, because their only "tough" player was an undersized PF that was a former 2nd round pick.

At that point, you then balance a couple things-who is more likely to be a franchise type player? Griffin was allegedly #1 on the Rockets board in probably an even deeper draft. Ming is likely #1 this year. I'd say the odds are pretty close. So then it comes to return-Are you going to get a 22 year old stud player and 2 lotto picks for Griffin?

 

Rocketsfan34,

If Ming is drafted by the Rockets and an outside source (the Sharks) prevent him from joining the team, the rights to the player never expire....

See Arvidas Sabonis for something similar, if the Rocks draft him and he is not able to sign because of China or anything outside of him deciding not to play, the Rocks keep his rights....forever.

By the way, you guys that think Ming is not a franchise center are missing the point, he may not be, but what if he is......?

DaDakota

 

rf34,

I just don't see how we would ever lose drafting rights to Ming. It would have to be his call, and his call alone, to make. He will not pull a Danny Ferry or Danny Ainge.

For the Rockets to lose Draft rights on Ming, three things must happen:

1. The Sharks must release him

2. He must not sign another pro ball contract anywhere for a year, and

3. He must provide notice of availability to negotiate a Rookie Scale Contract with no legal impediments, and, all by himself, make a "bona fide effort" to negotiate a Rookie Scale agreement and fail to do so for a year, and

I can't believe a scenario where the Sharks completely release Yao, and he refuses to sign a contract. Yao has to be completely released and available to negotiate as an individual (and refuse to play any bball for a year) for us to ever lose rights to him. And even if he does that, all that gets him is a right to enter the draft again...he's still not a free agent.

 

I'm sorry, but your taking hearsay from someone you don't even know, who you will never even be able to identify, accepting their contextual evaluation, and accepting it as proof.

Let's just even imagine for a moment that the guy wasn't making it up, and the person he walked up to was really Carol Dawson, and what he got was indeed a dirty look, not the byproduct of some gastrointestinal disturbance.

Would you then expect Dawson to then ask for a detailed scouting evaluation from some random person? Do you think, just perhaps, that the guy got a dirty look because he was some nobody trying to tell Dawson how to do his job at an inappropriate time while Dawson was trying to enjoy the game?