Since Lebron will be seeing Ron, Shane and Yao for the next 6 years in the finals, I will take Larry. Because there is no way Lebron will be able to do anything except get shut down...
Not at all.. You can argue he's the greatest center of all-time, I wouldn't argue he's better than Jordan. Jordan changed the game of basketball because he's one of the first people to ever be able to win like that. Wow, Just wow. This just shows you how badly John Hollinger and his stupid stats are ruining the game of basketball. We have guys like LeBron being considered better than guys like Scottie Pippen and Havlicek now. Just wow.
Why should I consider Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek better basketball players? Instead rolling your eyes, make the argument that at their peak they were better than what LeBron has exhibited this season.
There's always this problem when comparing players of different eras... yes, there were three other HOFers (I'm not counting Walton, because he was done by that time) on that Celtics team: Parish, McHale, and Johnson. But how much did playing with Bird make them HOFers? Johnson was the best player on a championship team before arriving in Boston, so he would have probably been selected regardless. Parish never made 1st Team All-NBA, never came close to an MVP award, never led the league in any statistical category. He was a career 14/9 guy with his best year being 81-82 where he had almost a 20/11 season. He never averaged over 20 ppg. He only averaged over 11 rpg twice. Vlade's best year had him 4 ppg behind Parish, but similar rpg and better assists and blocks. In short, if he hadn't been on the Celtics team that won championships and if he hadn't been on the receiving end of Bird, McHale and Johnson passes, he would have had a difficult time getting in the Hall. He was a good, but not great, center playing on a great team. McHale's a career 18/7 guy. He never averaged 10 rpg. He did have a stretch where he hit for over 20 ppg five years in a row, but that was it. (In comparison, Dream averaged over 20ppg 13 years in a row.) McHale led the league in FG% twice, but those were the only times he led the league in anything. He never came close to an MVP. McHale had some amazing post moves, ran the floor well for his body type, but... would he have been a HOFer elsewhere? If he was the primary scorer and the defense didn't have to worry about Bird or even Parish on the weak side, would he have seen more double teams? Bird was clearly what made that team go and I think if you look at it objectively, he probably made HOFers out of Parish and McHale and probably helped cinch it for DJ. It is unfair to diminish Bird's accomplishments by saying he played with HOFers when he is arguably the primary reason we think of them as HOFers. There's also the problem of throwing out the Phrase "Hall of Famer." When you hear it you tend to think of MJ, Magic, Dr. J, Dream... but there are lots of HOFers that were just like Parish and McHale... good players on great teams, but not people you would think of as belonging to the pantheon of basketball. (You can't tell me all those Celtics from the Russell years are HOF talents.)
Being a Top 5 Small-forward of all-time is more than just one season. It does take usually a career to do so and a prime to do so. You might want to do a bit more studying on Hondo. Also a prime Scottie Pippen is better than a current LeBron. There are some stats to prove it, but if you ask me the best way to know is if you watch them play. PER is a joke stat as well. Honestly, LeBron having just as good of a season as Michael Jordan ever had? Michael Jordan was considered a guy who could take over any game he wants, would win every single game possible and was unstoppable and relentless on both ends.
I've been watching the nba since 77 and I watched the golden rea of hoops. I didn't vote, but right now its bird, in 5 yrs its going to be lbj and it won't even be close. You think about the teams bird had and he was a great player, but whois as good as dennis johnson on the cavs squad. The same dennis johnson that led seattle to a title. I didn't even bring up cornbread, mchale,and parish and the former mvp off the bench. Not to mention, bird was kind of a tweener. He played pf with maxwell and sf with mchale. Also, who would he guard in todays game. I don't care how smart and savvy he was, bird couldn't guard any sf or pf in the league today. At least back then at the 4 spot, u had slower, plodding types.
Shaq was on the all time team his 4th season in the league. There is something called projection. It was safe to say on his pace early he was going to be a all time great. James is doing things that only a early kareem and magic are capable of doing. Barring a grant hill like injury, he's going to be a all time great regardless of position. He's already cemeting that by winning the mvp at age 24. Bird was 24 his 2nd year in the league. If u shook up all the players past and present and constructed a team, lebron is going to be one of the 1st players taken regardless of position.
You have your criteria, I have mine. I know who Havlicek is, what his accomplishments were, and generally what his peers thought of him. I can't say I was around to see him play regularly (perhaps you were), but I've caught a few of his games on NBA TV. Point me to some information that indicates he was a better player than LeBron James, if you really know of any. As for Pippen, I watched him play a ton, and I don't know what you're basing that on. You say there are stats to "prove" it. Hmm .. I don't believe these type of questions can ever be proven with stats that I'm familiar with, so I'm curious what killer stats you have at your disposal.
I don't play the number game. I didn't catch Hondo either, however I am most certain this guy is the 2nd best small forward of all-time behind Larry Bird. LeBron will be a Top 3 Small forward of all-time when he gets a ring. There's a difference between leading your team and winning a championship and just winning a championship by doing nothing like Melvin Ely and Brian Scalabrine.
I like the way you put that. When I think of "Greatest Players Ever", that's how I look at it . It's not simply who got the most awards or who won the most championships. If I'm constructing a team, and I can pick any small forward, I'll have to take LeBron James before Barry, Pippen, or Havlicek. I'd take him before Baylor, and I'd probably take him before Dr. J as well.
But you just said there are stats to prove Pippen should be considered a greater player than LeBron James. If you really meant that, what are those stats? We can agree to disagree on what stats are important, I'm just curious on what you think are the relevant ones.
Please tell me you're joking. LeBron was more productive on a per-minute basis this season than any of Jordan's seasons except one, and if he keeps his torrid pace during these playoffs, he's going to be setting a league record there too.
Really not much stats, My bad on making that mistake. You really can't judge much stats either considering the fact that he played with Michael Jordan. The only thing I can tell you about him is that he won games and he won as a 2nd option and had pretty good looking stats when Jordan retired for those 2 years. You got your opinion, but I am not sure how many people will agree with LeBron currently being better than Pippen at this point.
SF and SG are very similar positions. Even though he didn't play it much, I think MJ has been the best SF as well as SG ever to play the game.
Lebron is a great player. Zero rings thus far. He has an unbelievable first few years. Lets see him do if for 6 more years, before he's the best ever. I heard a guy the other day say Lebron is better then MJ. hahahahahaha I predicted Lebron will win 3 rings.
Forgive the young people for what they don't know. In my opinion Dr. J is the greatest SF to ever play the game. A lot of people don't know how great he was because he came into the NBA later in his career, but if you look at what he did in the ABA dude was a monster. He could do anyting he wanna on the court and there was nothing anyone could do about it. He was also a great rebounder, I believe in the ABA one season he avg. about 13 or 14 boards again thats crazy for a SF.
