India & Pakistan

They say a launch to strike would take about 5 minutes and estimate 12 Million lives lost. We are idiots, are we not...

 

These countries have been at war before. Obviously, the nuclear bomb factor presents an even more difficult situation now. India has said it will not use nuclear weapons first. Pakistan, on the other hand, has refused to rule out the use of nuclear weapons as a "first strike" option.

I don't know much of the history behind Kashmir...which is what they are fighting about. It's my understanding that India feels Kashmir is a part of their country. Musharaff and Pakistan, on the other hand, think Kashmir should have their own independence and be free to self-govern. It is amazing how far two countries will go over such a small area but they have been fighting over it for a long time and have had two wars over it already.

I cannot disagree with India's statement that Pakistan is an "epicenter of terrorism". Musharaff has quite a balancing act going on between cracking down on militants, dealing(or avoiding dealing) with militants in Kashmir as they are "freedom fighters" in his opinion, and trying to appease the international community while remaining favorable among his own people. Unfortunately, it all goes back to the debate of "freedom fighter" versus "terrorist". We know the militants in Kashmir are some of the same who deal with Al Qaeda and Taliban. They are striking in India either from Kashmir or, more likely, from Pakistan. Musharaff denies any strikes have come from Pakistan but I'm not buying it. I don't think the Pakistan government is on firm ground...they have to be careful what they do. Notice how when they went into tribal areas they had never ventured to before to look for/capture Taliban/Al Qaeda, they gave the tribal leaders warning that they were coming. This tipped them off and probably allowed most of the Taliban/Al Qaeda to escape. I think those areas are still ripe with Al Qaeda and Taliban...especially since they let most of the people they round up go due to lack of evidence. Musharaff claims these same tribal leaders gave him their word they were not harboring Al Qaeda and he accepts that? Sure. The US can pussyfoot around the issue all they want saying Musharaff is an asset to fighting terrorism. To an extent, they are right as he has done alot but much work remains. But, he has to look out for his own ass while balancing international(US) demands. If he wouldn't have signed on to help us in our war against terroristm, then his country would have been a legitimate target along with Afghanistan. As far as I'm concerned, it still is a target as we know terrorists are finding sanctuary in Pakistan.

If Pakistan cannot control the situation and stop militants from striking India, then India sure the hell will. It's all up to Musharaff in my opinion. He can lead his people to war or he can do more to control the militants. But, he views Kashmir militants as serving a valid cause. But, these militants are easily muddied in with the same terrorists that we are fighting. In fact, it's probably hard to see a difference. There are only so many more attacks on India interests that India will receive before it retaliates(and I'm not just talking about shooting from the lines their troops are on).

I think they will go to war again. If one uses nuclear weapons, then the other will retaliate. The argument over Kashmir will be moot if that happens because alot of people will be dead and the land will be uninhabitable for years to come if it goes nuclear. It doesn't server either country to strike with nuclear bombs. But, it appears if one is pushed to the verge of defeat, then they may not hesitate to do so. The fallout will spread and cause cancer for years to come. They should think twice about using nuclear weapons. If everyone is dead, then what purpose will it have served?

 

Situation on Indo-Pak Border is very tense. It has been that way for a while. It escalated a little bit.
Nuclear War.... I strongly believe its not going to happen. Both the countries can't afford it and smart enough to realize it. Its just a 'talk'.
The following quotes from Yahoo News article best sum up the situation
(http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...586&e=2&u=/nm/20020528/wl_nm/southasia_dc_163)
"Analysts say much of the rhetoric from both sides as well as the Pakistani missile tests -- is saber-rattling by leaders aimed at satisfying domestic hawks and shoring up their shaky political bases.
But fears have risen that with a million troops facing each other on the border, another strike by Muslim militants in India could push the two countries toward a war neither side wants. "

There is a lot to the history of conflict between these two nations. India(and me) strongly believe pakistan promotes cross border terrorism. Pakistan contradicts and justifies its actions as providing moral support to freedom( from whom???) fighters in Kashmir.
There was an attack on Indian Parliament on Dec 13 by terrorist organizations whose roots are in pakistan. India upped its pressure and moved troops to the border and cutoff majority of the diplomatic ties with pakistan. Under the pressure from International community(US) Gen. Musharaff banned those organizations and gave a speech on Jan 12 promising to curb terrorism. However it remained just talk. Indian intelligence claims theose organizations are still operational.
Few days back there was another major attack in Jammu and is leading to this current crisis. Gen. Musharaff maintains it has nothing to do with pakistan. India and majority of Intl. community thinks other wise.

Yes, the situation is tense.. but very well under control. However, any small mistake from either side could change the equation.
In my opinion, Nukes would only be used if there is a conventional war and Pakistan is on the brink of loosing it.. There is a lot to happen before that, so I dont think there is any clear and present danger.
However, if a Nuke war was ever to happen between these heavily populated nations..... (I will stop here.. I dont want to think further.. )

(These opinions are from an Indian point of view. I am very much intersed in hearing a knowledgeable and neutral point of view)

 

I am tired of giving my "Indian" side of the view. Arent there any Pakistanis on this site?

Mango knows alot about this situation, but he has never stated his views or opinions on it.

Pakistan is a nation that supports terrorism. For me its as simple as that. "Moral support" my ****ing ass! The Pakistani leadership has to be some of the dumbest people in this world. They cant actually believe they can defeat India in a conventional war?!?!? India has one of the best navy of the world, their army is much more powerful then Pakistan, and our Air Force is also superior to that of Pakistan.

The Pakistani leadership has long been deterring their peoples mind from their economic problems. Their retarted propaganda against Kashmir and India is done for one purpose. The majority of Pakistan does not care whether Kashmir belongs to them or not. The poor uneducated people are brainwashed by the government.

Kashmir is predominantly Muslim, but so what? I'm Muslim and I'm from India. There are more Muslims in India then Pakistan for crying out loud. Kashmiris were happy until 1989. Thats when Pakistan really started their terroristic (is that a word?) actions. Since then over 30,000 civilians have died.

Why should India give up Kashmir to Pakistan? Why should India give Kashmir independence? Lets say NYC is predominantly Jews. Israel then starts claiming that it rightfully belongs to them based on that sole factor. They committ many acts of terrorism in that city. Would we give NYC to them (forget the distance between NYC and Israel for a while)? Would we give NYC independence? Did the North grant Texans and other Southern States independence?

I dont freakin think so!

Giving up a part of your own country is NEVER a option. If Pakistan thinks otherwise or supports any more terrorism in India then they are seriously ****ed. India has had enough of Pakistans BS!

 

Barring a nuclear war, India attacking Pakistan can only help the war against terrorism and help the US. The problem, besides the India-Pakistan Kashmir issue, is Al Qaeda and Taliban are in Pakistan and probably in Kashmir re-grouping and plotting their next big attacks. The whole time the US plays around Musharaff....they are getting closer to springing the next big attack...potentially bigger than WTC and Pentagon.

Honestly, I don't see how the US can play this waiting game and not go into Pakistan. I'm not talking about small scale raids. Pakistan is full of terrorists...people who assist Al Qaeda are terrorists. All these "tribes" where Pakistan's government dare not venture are providing support to Taliban and Al Qaeda.

The question then becomes WTF are we going to do about it? We better be planning a major attack or sweep through these areas. If not, then we are screwing ourselves. Al Qaeda/Taliban want the Kashmir issue in the forefront so they can be left alone. This is all part of the plan. The longer we wait, the more risk we are at and the worse it will be when something does happen. This is no BS, either. There is too much p***y-footing going on right now. There is too much sympathy for terrorism in Pakistan. Do we forget where the Taliban came from(cough...Pak...err)? These people want nothing more than to kill non-Muslims.

I fear we are going to wait until it is too late to do something about the Pakistan situation. When the US becomes another fireball, tell all the victims how we could have done more to deal with terrorists in Pakistan but did not...all the while they were re-grouping, planning, and doing this to us. The US and Musharaff better have something big up their sleeves...or else we allied with the wrong person and country. We may need to do something on our own to deal with this. Remember what Bush said...you harbor terrorists and you are terrorists. We reserve the right to take action...these people attacked us lest we forget.

Damn straight...this is serious sh*t. You may not want to hear it but that's how it is and noone is saying jack so.

 

This pretty much supports what you're saying Surf:

Taliban and Qaeda Believed Plotting Within Pakistan

 

Actually they dont even care if their fellow Muslims die in thier stupid ass struggle.

 

Pakistani here.

First off, calling Pakistani people dumb is some ignorance in your part. Also calling them a state of terrorists is also totally false.
I am breifly going to give you the history of the conflict.

Pakistan and India separated in 1947. Obviously India was not happy at all about the split eventhough the great Gandhi admitted himself that Muslim and Hindus can not live together(Partially true but mostly false). He was there own leader who came to the conclusion that Muslim needed there own state. Obviously nearly all of Hindus disagreed even many Muslims(who happened to get along with Hindus just fine). India has at two occasions tried to get Pakistan as a whole back through war but hasn't succeeded eventhough Bangladest did separated from Pakistan as a result of 1971 war.

Basically, i will be honest with you. Pakistan got screwed when the territories for each country was determined. The basic rule they used was that majority Muslim territory becomes Pakistan and the rest becomes India. Despite the fact that Haderabad and part of Punjab(Indian land) were dominatntly Muslims, Pakistan did not get these territories. So there are some bitter conflicts between the two countries with both having logical points.

Which brings us to Kashmir. A part that is considered to be a beautiful land but doesn't necessarily have anything special that both countries have to threaten each other with nuclear weapons. It is not like the land has Oil that both countries MUST have it but just because both want conflict. Pakistan first wanted Kashmir to become part of Pakistan but now they just want Kashmir to be independent. On the other hand, India just wants Kashmir no matter what.

Using the excuse that many Muslims in India want Kashmir to be on there side and that pakistanis in general are terrorists is just pure non sense. Sure there are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan but you might be surprised Rocket03, how many of them would gladly leave India to become independent, not necessarily become a part of Pakistan. Muslim and Hindus still fight in India. Just a matter of who starts it. As we all know the recent casualties in India. It's not all that well in India, that every Muslim and Hindus have no problem living. Many of them hate each other and have burned each other alive in the process. How do you explain a cricket match few years back in India where when India won the Match, many indians went to there neghbor muslim communities and burned there houses to celebrate.

I go to college here and there are alot of Indian and Pakistani imigrant students here and to be honest with you, We get along very well. There are many Pakistani and Indians who are roomates, do there work together, eat together and play together. To me, what happens in BOTH Pakistan and India is pure propaganda by the media. Once an Indian friend of mine and me were having a discussion over this matter and I asked him why can't we resolve this issue once and for all and let the people of Kashmir decide what they want and i swear this was his respone. "Obviously Kashmiri would want to go to Pakistan, tell you what, you can have Kashmir, if just in return, you can give us back Pakistan".

There are alot of Terrorist acts going on in both Pakistan and India. Obviously when a terrorist act happens in Pakistan, everybody including the media just assumes that it is there own people but when something happens in India, it is the fault of Pakistan. Don't get me wrong but this terrorists are neither friends of us nor friends of India, they are just building propaganda which would result in a war between two nations.

In conclusion, i don't think that there will be a war because both nations are smart enough. Pakistan is obviously weaker compare to India so they have to use more bold statements in Media to protect themselves from a possible war by India.

 

First, I don't think there is going to be a war ... both sides aren't stupid ... if anyone is remotely tempted to use nuclear weapons, it basically destroys both countries, its not like they're so far apart.

Secondly ... ROckets03 ... as far as India's army being more formidable ... I'm not sure about that; the thing that is staggering is the sheer amount of people they have in comparison to Pakistan. Of the over 1 million troops amassed near the borders, 75% are Indian. Makes sense after all ... Pakistans population is 20% that of India, so the proportions hold true here too. Back in the day, Pakistan used to have one of the strongest Air Forces, not sure anymore (this is back from like 12-13 years ago ... ) And man, poor, poor India ... oh so innocent, being bullied left and right. You're trying to tell me that there are 750,000 troops patrolling India's borders and they can't keep these 'terrorists' out ... pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Also, Pakistan is not asking for Kashmir, its asking for a fair election there once so the habitants can voice their own opinions. There are UN security resolutions out there calling for elections in Kashmir ... why hasn't India done anything about that? What is the justification ... ?

The problem here is that ROckets03's sympathies lie with India, for good reason ... and mine lie with Pakistan ... so obviously we're both going to believe our versions of the stories

India having more Muslims doesn't really prove anything. They're very much oppressed there ... just look at what has happened in Gujrat over the last few months, over 2000 Muslims have been killed ... please justify that to me. Even in the predominantly Muslims areas like Delhi, and Hyderabad, their situation is pretty sad. Of course, Pakistan is no beacon of hope for these people, but at least they don't have to put up with the humiliation there. I have family in India, so I have basis to talk

Another point, Pakistan has repeatedly asked for neutral observers to come and monitor the borders, why has India declined everytime? If Pakistan is infact causing havoc in the area, it would be in India's best interest to have the world uncover it ... the blame can fully be rested on Pakistans shoulders then. Why isn't the Indian government agreeing to this?

I don't think there is any one answer to the problem. Both sides are to blame and until both sides agree to some meaningful dialogue and decide to grow up, nothing is happening ... no war, no resolution and endless suffering for the Kashmiris ... thats my 2c anyways

 

Just remembered a funny joke about India/Pakistan...

Both countries are such bitter rivals, that even when an animal dies in either country, its blamed on the other.

I dunno, I find that hilarious, maybe its just me!

--Rockit

 

Probably because India is waiting for Pakistan to fulfill its part in the sequence of steps that lead up to those elections.


Mango

 

clutchdream, of course I dont agree with majority of these following claims.

One of us was taught our history wrong .
Mohd. ALi Jinnah, a key leader of Indian National Congress advocated a separate muslim state theory. THe other leaders of INC did not accept to this(and that include some Muslim freedom fighters also). After the efforts of persuading Mr. Jinnah failed, fearing a huge communal clashes, Mr.Gandhi went out of the way and convinced other leaders to accomadate Mr. Jinnah's cause.
Do you konw that Mahatma Gandhi was assasinated because of this reason?

clutchdream, you are making it sound like Indian army attacked Pakistani positions all of sudden. Wait a minute!! Isn't it the Pakistanki Air force that attacked Indian posions night of Dec 3, 1971(when the war officially started). If what you claim is anywhere close to truth, Pakistan would've been a part of India 'cos India won the 1971 war convincingly. There is enuff info on the web. Please do a little more research making such statements

Not true. Pakistani intentions are less than noble here.

Actually my friend, its not Rockets03 who would be suprised. I lived in India for 22 years and believe me. I was a neighbour with a muslim family for 15 of those years. Muslims and Hindus don't hate each other. I lived among them. My wife went to college in Hyderabad which is owned by Muslims and 90% of her friends are Muslims. I know what I am talking about. There is even a memorial for Mr.Jinnah in my home town( a small town in south India), if that means anything. Muslims in India live with far more freedom than there counterparts in Pakistan(Based on what I read from International magazines like Time)
what happened in gujarat is a very stray incident. Ofcourse ther is not justification and as an Indian I am ashamed. However, the blanket statement you made based on that incident is not true.

you can't overlook the fact that Pakistani intelligence(ISI) harbored terrorism and helped them infiltrate into India. Why do you think Gen.Musharaff made a radical changes in the ISI ranks few months back ?

I Agree.

 

rockit, why do you think Gen.MUsharaff is talking of using Nukes?
Why do you think Indian govt. is confidently sticking to its No First use policy? Thats talks enough about the relative milary strengths.
Yeah.. Pakistan had pretty good Airforce once(u know when America was giving all the military assistance during cold war period ). Do you seriously think Indian army is being bullied? Well when the enemy is fighting a proxy war.. its not all that easy and they are doing fairly good job is keeping these infiltrators out.

rockit, Please dont get offended but are you making the above statement based on some news from media or do you know personally know any (even one) muslim Indian who feel that way? What humiliation are you talking about? There isn't any.
You have a family in India. SO I am really confused. I can talk for Hyderabad 'cos I lived within 200miles of Hyd all my life and majority of my family lives in Hyderabad. Muslims are dominant in many parts of city. They are very integral part of city's administration. The city's Mayor was a Muslim for long time. Since you bought up Hyderabad, I have to tell you dont have an accurate picture of whats happening there.
Do you mind if I ask you if you or any of your friends/family have been to Hyderabd(or lived there)? I would be interested in first hand experiences 'cos what you said don't agree with what I saw.

Actually Elections were scheduled towards the later part of this year.

 

I agree with most of 03's opinions. I also am a muslim from India, born in Chicago though so I never grew up with this so called "tension" between Indians and Pakis. In my school in Houston, we didn't have any Pakis, just 3 indians. Now since I have moved to Chicago, I have met a whole lot more people because there is much more asians over here. When I first got here, I lived near alot of Pakis and so obviously I got along with them. I didn't care if they wanted Kashmir or hated hindus, I just cared if they wanted to ball at 5 o'clock or not. But once we got to school, I was also friends with the Indian group. But, the Pakis always though I was too chummy with them and always tried to act friendly, and usually were, but you could always tell that they though I was gonna turn on them any minute. It was always an uneasy feeling and it still is to this day. All these guys have just come from their native countries in the last 4-5 years and they just cant get along. It's all propaganda fed by the media and tall tales from parents, and other friends. It's all bogus. I know also many Indians and Pakis that are friends. My dad's best friends were all hindu's back in College in India. Some of my best friends in this school are hindu. As long as you don't care about a persons religion or ethnicity or anything else but who they are, you will have a lot more friends.

 

Oh yeah, my dad is from Hyderabad and so is my mom. All of their familys are still back there. They still have hindu friends.........DAMMIT!!! SHAQ FOULED OUT!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO................

 

Here is an intresting page from the BBC that would tend to indicate that things are neither as good or as bad for Indian Muslims as many of you would claim. I found this to be a very intresting read.

 

Oops ... didn't realize I hit the Submit button twice

 

AB:

I didn't say the Indian army can be bullied, but do maintain that they're not that mighty, but they are definitely great in numbers, something that alone would destroy the Pakistani side. 3:1 are never good odds. Having ±750,000 troops in the region, compared to ±250,000 ... yeah, I'd say you have pretty good chances to win.

Elections ... I'll believe it when I see it. As far as Pakistan agreeing to the UN resolutions, http://www.ummah.net/kashmir/unres/res3.htm, a quick read thru here would suggest they've completed their 2 requirements. All the UN resolutions concerning this issue are here, if anyone is interested.

Knowing people in Hyderabad ... yeah, I know tons of people. My parents grew up there, my grandparents still live there. My cousins, aunts, uncles, friends ... a whole lotta folks ... they live right on Banjara Hills, used to be a beautiful place. My uncle is actually an MP from the region. Again, things used to be great when the Nizam was the ruler in Hyderabad, but as you very well know, it isn't the case anymore. As far as events go, I didn't say all Muslims are downtrodden and just hanging onto life ... no, not at all. But the percentage of those who are doing well is not comparable to those who aren't. I have 3 cousins there who cannot wait to get out of India ... for them, its just anyplace but India ... so thats what I'm basing it on.

I also stated that Pakistan is by no means a haven for these people or a beacon of hope for Muslims around the world, there is a lot of wrong there that will take sometime to fix. Hopefully, Musharraf is finally the man to take the country by the reins and do something that the previous corruption-ridden governments couldn't.

I noticed you decided not to reply on the recent events from Gujarat or the neutral international observers?

Rockets R Us:

My best friend is a Hindu, hell my closest 3 friends are Hindu ... this is a political issue, not a religious one ... although, lately it seems that Muslims are getting screwed left and right through the actions of a few dumb f*s, most certainly in the minority.

As I said, India isn't without blame in this whole issue either ... it takes two to tango ... both sides have to realize that neither will back down, nor will the issue go away without some serious talks and negotiations, something which Pakistan has called for numerous times, with no budging on Indias part.

Ottomaton:

Sounds less good than bad to me.

--Rockit