Grizzled -- im not trying to do some deep cultural analysis...but I can tell you right now I've represented more than a few Chinese individuals...they do not do business the way we do, and one of my clients (who has been in America for a while now) refuses to do business with other Chinese people for that very reason. I agree that there are significant cultural differences, but the new China is very much open for business. I think there are some significant regional differences too, but places like Shanghai and Hong Kong are among the largest business centres in the world. This is a new culture for them admittedly. Much of that contract law was written in the 80's and even as late as 93'. But western companies have been doing business successfully there for some time now. They do understand contracts and importance of having good business relationships. The "c" word is going to bite me again??? huh??? what does that mean??? They are a communist government...they're not biting anyone but Ming...and perhaps the Rockets, ultimately. It is quite atypical to have to negotiate with a government for the services of a citizen. It's ridiculous!! Would it be ridiculous to expect to have to negotiate with his Olympic team for his services? Given that he is probably contracted to them, in some form anyway, and that he clearly has significant value to them, I don't find it that odd. I think the Rockets should have all these contractual issues clarified and signed off on before they draft him, though. This is a groundbreaking situation in many ways, so it would certainly be best to reduce the uncertainty up front. You can talk about how progressive they might be all you want...but it still leads you back to the fact that this guy can't wipe his ass without permission! They are ultimately in control...he is not...and neither are the Rockets. This is what I'm talking about with the "C" word, I guess. It's just not this way. This is like some Orwellian stereotype that simply isn't true. My friend can come and go as she pleases. She's become a landed immigrant in Canada, but since she will almost certainly be working internationally in her career, she wants to become a Canadian primarily to get a Canadian passport, which may be the best passport in the world for travelling. She happily expects to go back and work in China, where her international experience will be very valuable and allow her to make big $$$$$. Nobody is telling her when to come and go, let alone when to wipe her ass. Believe me...if they want out of that contract, they're the freaking Chinese government, and they'll find a way out. Just as the rumblings are beginning that they're ready for Wang to come back...the same will be true of Ming if things don't go exactly as they hope. In almost any business relationship the most important components are respect and credibility. Just because the government could break a contract doesn't mean they don't understand that that would have repercussions. It would and they do. Also, if Yao wants to stay, he could stay on his own. I'm sure he could find a way to break his contract/obligations to the Chinese Olympic team. I'm agreeing with you that there haven't been that many Chinese players drafted in the NBA, so there are uncertainties associated with the newness of this situation. But the Chinese do understand business and contracts and many western companies do business there. And I don't think we should be any more concerned about "communism" in China than we are about the "socialist" government in the UK, for example. The terms in these contexts are almost meaningless. Yes, China has a different form of government and a very different history, but the stereotypes associated with term "communist" aren't accurate and won't help your understanding of who they are and how they operate.
Grizzled -- I think you might be missing my point. I'm simply saying he's not at the Rockets' disposal. He plays under a whole different set of rules. Ultimately, he is a Houston Rocket second (assuming we draft him) and a Chinese national player first. All conflicts of schedules will be resolved in favor of the Chinese. We're already being told he won't be attending training camp for at least the first 3 or so years. I'm not talking about negotiating with the Shanghai Sharks...that's something altogether different. I'm talking about the fact that the Chinese government ultimately have control over this guy...and ultimately it's their call. Wang has played for the Mavs for 2 years now...he's yet to play a full season. He wasn't allowed to join the Mavs until December this past season....that is an unacceptable risk for spending the first pick on in my view.
All this for a guy that nobody is sure will be able to play NBA basketball, and the only comparisons he draws are Shawn Bradley and Rik Smits. We have the opportunity to give our team some real help by dealing this pick, help that can be measured not guessed at or talked about. All this shoot the moon talk feels like shoot yourself in the foot to me.
Max: Well yes, I agree that there are some concerns there. I'd say that this is a different situation though, and that the Rockets should stress this in their negations with the Chinese, (and I suspect that the Chinese know this too). He would be a first overall pick, after all, and a potential world wide superstar, not simply a role player, (or so the hope is anyway). If the Chinese want him to play here, surely they want to give him every chance to succeed. This would mean many things including, IMO, being here for training camp. The Chinese may feel that the international experience is just as good or better for him, and could point to Gasol, Nash, Todd Mac, etc. so this may be a point for negotiation. But things like full commitment for the term of the contract should certainly be included in that picture, IMO. I agree that these things should be discussed and agreed to, and signed off on, before he is drafted, but my concerns about him are more about whether he has the ability to become a top player in the NBA. I'm inclined to think that he does, but I am relying on second hand info like most people.
Don't say these things without links. I've never seen this officially or rumored. You are spreading misinformation, unless you show us links. First, Kirinlenko did not play for 2 yrs, either, and he was a first round draft pick the year Wang was a second. Second, the Mavs didn't really warn Wang's team that they were drafting him in 1999. Third, Wang was not even signed until 4/4/01, after the CBA finals in 2001. Makes sense to me, since the Mavs merely risked a 2nd Rounder on a player. He signed for the minimum. Why would he be in such a hurry??? 4th, and this is most important, the Mavs signed a special 1yr agreement with Wang, just to get him in uniform, that allowed him to play through November 2001 in Asian tournies. it is not the same. We don't have to sign that agreement. That is what the negotiations are all about. You presuming Yao's contract will be the same is premature.
heypartner-- I'm spreading misinformation without a link?? Stop taking yourself and these boards so seriously...that is ridiculous! This presumes that the only valid source of information is online...it also presumes that I'm a liar. I read this in the Chronicle this morning in John Lopez's article. I don't have a link for it and I'm not inclined to post one at this point...if you want to read it, go get it. It is a foregone conclusion, to my understanding, that he will not be available for training camp because it's the same time as the world championships in Indianapolis this year. In fact, I think I heard Rudy acknowledge as much on sportsradio yesterday.
right on Max. Did I miss the link? Should you be saying this w/o one? I expect a complete bibliography attached to each posting with footnotes throughout.
But that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the risks associated with dealing with China. Now, you are talking about him splitting time with Cato. If the Rockets honestly thought that (or any other team trying desperately to trade up and draft Yao), we wouldn't even be discussing this. The guy wouldn't be close to a #1 pick. You are also assuming that Butler has more upside that will lead to wins and that Ming is really just a "side show." What does that have to do with the risks associated with dealings with China? It sounds to me like you are more concerned about Ming the player rather than Ming the Chinese basketball player. If that's how you fell, that's cool. But, why argue all around one point and ignore the most important - his skills. If you don't think he has talent, you wouldn't draft him NO MATTER WHAT THE DIPLOMATIC RISKS!
I guess you have your sources that you can't mention. Lopez did not mention 3 yrs of no training camps in his article. So where did you get that. Nobody has mentioned that that I've seen. I'm not calling you a liar, but if you want anyone to listen to you then you have to show us something or at least mention a reference. When you choose not to offer references to help us figure out this Ming thing, you come off sounding like someone trying to win an argument, not get to the bottom of things. Do you want to see the sportingnews article that says the "trade a player" is a "hoax." Lopez is spreading a "hoax?" What do you make of that? In all the articles that I've read from Li Yaomin, I've only see him mention player compensation once, and that was over a year ago, and mentioned non-NBA players as suitable. Most likely before he knew we can't do that. If Lopez is spreading misinformation, or seriously outdated quotes, let's figure that out. All I know is the Sharks own Yao's contract just like Pau's Barcelona team did. We have to negotiate with them, of course we do. Your fear goes past these negotiations and into the realm of speculation way beyond precedence. "<i>Stop taking yourself and these boards so seriously.</i>" Why get so snippy? How many times have you questioned someone's sources of info in the Hangout. Do you want to sort out good info from bad on this Ming thing, or not ?
Here is an article in the NYPOST that is a must reading for anyone interested in Ming. It's an interview with David Benoit, an American teammate of Ming on the Sharks last season. http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/13702.htm I really think Ming is a risk worth taking, assuming Rockets can work a deal with China. I don't care what Steve may or may not have said about Ming. Once he starts playing with a center that can do the things Ming can, he's going to be happy to sign and stay. Like almost everyone here assumes that if the team is healthy, they will make the playoffs. If not, no-one in the draft or by trade will help and Rockets will be in the lottery. Don't waste time dreaming about KG. Not going to happen simply because his $20mil salary cannot be absorbed by this team without giving up major pieces. I don't think Min will take garbage for KG. Odom and Kandi is just as bad a risk. If the drugs thing with Odom is true, a 3rd strike would be just as bad as any worst case scenario with Ming and Chinese government. Kandi is a slightly better Cato. That's not good enough to push team over the top. Bottomline, take Ming and be happy team got the #1 pick. This will sell tickets as I for one will go to games if Ming is on the team. I will still watch Rockets on TV if Ming is elsewhere but it won't be the same. In fact, I'd watch whatever team he's on in the NBA.
I've posted the link before. He was their star, and Dallas just took a flyer on him with a 2nd Round. It was no big deal for Dallas, but it was interpreted totally differently in China. Tb-Cain, are you actually believing that misinformation and rumors are not rampant on this bbs or in English translations of Chinese articles. I just want to know where people get these things like MadMax saying Ming is not going to training camp for 3 yrs. And why Lopez is repeating a hoax. Ming is under contract with the Sharks, just like Pau was with Barcelona. We have to negotiate with them, but that is a far cry from the Chinese govt holding him hostage. For more on that, read crossover, heach, netdummy, and others on this board.
I'm not convinced Ming is the only talent in this draft worth having. He may not even be the best. The baggage is secondary, but considerable. If my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle. So what? Rolling the dice didn't get Shaq to LA, or bring the NFL back to Houston. It was diligence, perseverance and money. If Houston was like LA, New York or Chicago, I wouldn't want to be here. I want Houston to be Houston, and the best it can be. I don't care who compares us to what. If you are worried about that, you'll never be happy. Taking risks made Custer successful. Except for that last one. What risks did New York, Chicago and LA take? This whole take a risk or be a weakling thing bothers me. I think being bold is key, but taking unnecessary risks, although they may be fun, won't make you brave or strong or successful.
I read over the story from Lopez yesterday...you're right...that info wasn't there...in that case, I'm not sure where I read that. I don't want anyone to listen to me...that's why I don't post links. Why am I getting snippy??? I'm not the one demanding a bibliography! I was going to say something similar in my last post, but refrained. Here's a quote from Jonathan Feigen the other day, though, regarding Ming...http://www.chron.com/content/archiv...t=&type=&user=houston&sview=1&hview=2&dview=1 "He will not be able to play for an NBA summer league teams in July (the Rockets are scheduled to play in the LA Summer League) or to attend training camp in October. Because Yao is scheduled to play for the Chinese National Team in the World Championships in Indianapolis during late August and early September, he will be practicing with the Chinese team during the summer league. Because he will play for China in the Asian Games in late September, he would also have to miss training camp and much of the preseason." My fear goes into realms of speculation way beyond precedence??? Maybe that's because he's China's first, and ours second. That seems very clear already. Pau Gasol hasn't had to deal with the kind of govt restrictions that Ming and the team who selects him will. Not even close...apples and oranges. I argue for a living...so pardon me if it comes across that way. I just don't want the Rocks to waste this pick on a guy with as much uncertainty as Ming carries. Once again...every draftee is a risk...but Ming exceeds all that. Jeff -- I have problems with him as a player only because the list of guys as tall as him who've had a real impact on their team's chances of getting to a championship is quite short. I have very limited information on him as a player...it seems everyone has very limited information on that. We know he plays what is basically a finesse game...at 7'5"! I'm not cool with drafting a guy that tall to shoot 15 footers. All that, plus the risks I've talked about regarding dealing with the Chinese government, make me averse (at least at this point) to picking Ming. I wouldn't do it, if the decision were up to me. The last great thing out of China that was supposed to make a splash in the NBA is nothing more than a bench player. As for sharing time with Cato...that was something I heard the other day from Rich and Charlie on sportsradio...Charlie said he couldn't imagine that he would do anything more than share time with Cato this season...I tend to agree. So it's not just his play that concerns me...it's also the concerns with the Chinese government and the Shanghai Sharks. Hey...look...I REALLY hope I'm wrong! I hope that, if we draft him, he kicks tail. I just don't see it. I'm not sure he'll be here enough to really get the training he'll need for the NBA game. And I'm not sure his strengths will really be strengths when he comes to the NBA and plays against that kind of competition. I don't that's worth the risk, particularly given the opportunity cost of a nice trade.
My point was just that there are a lot of television and radio broadcasts which provide additional information and therefore links aren't available. Also, posting to this message board will become very tedious when we are required to scour the Internet for information to support our positions, or record broadcasts of tv and radio in order to obtain accurate quotes and sources. I had hoped the rolling eyes were a clue that I wasn't actually <I>"demanding"</I> a bibliography. I think everyone owes me a debt of gratitude, BTW. On the night of the draft lottery, I chose to go to church rather than watching the lottery live. Obviously, God chose to reward me for putting Him first. Here's the link: http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.exe?StringToSearch=mt+6&version=nkjv
Does anyone know if the Rockets are going to have the opportunity to bring in Yao for a private workout as would be expected of any number 1 pick? I can't see how they could make a reasoned evalaution of his talent without that happening. I got the impression that he wil not come in and that the Rcoks wil have to make a decision based on the dog and pony show in Chicago. Yes ther are Chinese league tapes (for whatever that is worth) and some international games but why should he be evaluated any differentlyy than any other potential number 1 pick?
<i>I have problems with him as a player only because the list of guys as tall as him who've had a real impact on their team's chances of getting to a championship is quite short. </i> So, then should Orlando have avoided Shaq because the list of 300lb 7 footers that had led their team to a championship was very short (or non-existant)? Should they have assumed that Shaq was another Mark Eaton or James Donaldson? Those guys were the same body type, so obviously Shaq must play like those guys, right? Of course not, Shaq was unique and nothing like those two. Likewise, Yao is nothing like Bradley, Meuresan or Bol. They are just of similar height. Listen to what the NBA people are saying. Nobody, I mean nobody, has said the guy is going to be a bust. The worst thing that I've heard an NBA person say about him is that he's comparable to a young Ric Smits with better passing skills. You know what? A young Ric Smits is a top 5 center in the NBA right now. I'll take that for a player's downside. Sure, everybody is going to have opinions on his effectiveness and weaknesses, but nobody associated with the NBA is saying that this guy is a Shawn Bradley or Bol. <i>I have very limited information on him as a player...it seems everyone has very limited information on that. We know he plays what is basically a finesse game...at 7'5"! I'm not cool with drafting a guy that tall to shoot 15 footers. </i> Hmm... Kevin Garnett is a 7'1" guy that basically plays a finesse game and he prefers to shoot 15 footers. So , why then is everybody so hot gut the team to acquire Garnett?
<i>Does anyone know if the Rockets are going to have the opportunity to bring in Yao for a private workout as would be expected of any number 1 pick? I can't see how they could make a reasoned evalaution of his talent without that happening. I got the impression that he wil not come in and that the Rcoks wil have to make a decision based on the dog and pony show in Chicago. Yes ther are Chinese league tapes (for whatever that is worth) and some international games but why should he be evaluated any differentlyy than any other potential number 1 pick?</i> carlos, A couple of points: 1) The Rocket's drafted Eddie Griffen last year without bringing him in for a workout. So, it wouldn't be unprecedented. 2) My guess is that the ultimate compromise will be that the Rockets get to go work out Yao in China.
Garnet's game is not about finesse. He may start out 15 feet away, but he is going to take you to the rack with authority. He has a midrange game as a backup. He may not be like Bradley, but he is a lot like Wang. I think that's more what we can expect.
Stanley Roberts was a clone of Shaq as far as athletic power and strength, but what made one a top 50 and the other a bust? Work ethic and the willingness to improve. Why do I bring this up? That can be the difference between Bradley and Ming. If a team had the number 1 pick in 91 and Roberts had the ethic of O'Neal, that would be the only player in the league that could match up with him. Imagine Hamilton with his weight under control and the work ethics of Dream. He would be a player that could match O'Neal. The reason those guys I listed are successful or failures doesn't have much to do with talent. It has more to do with how they work and want to improve. If Ming shows his continued development with his physical skills can only bode well for him and the Rockets. O'Neal kinda got on the whole Ming thing and even though he is one of my favorite players, Ming may not be as good as Shaq. What I envision is Shaq gtting 25 or 30 and Ming getting 20. If going into seasons you knew Ming could get you 20 to go along with what Francis and Mobley brings, how angry would you be? If Ming got 17pts and 12rebs and 3 blks every night, would you worry about him redefining the position?
