I find it's interesting that in boxing, the greatest boxer don't have to have the best record. I often see in some championship level matches, player A with 87-3 record(70 KO's) was defeated(sometimes easily) by player B with 81-9 record(30 KO's)... I just make up the numebrs here, you get the idea. Then there's no doubt player B is the champion, even if player A has better record against other inferior boxers(with much higher KO ratio as well). But in basketball, things don't go that way. If yao is beaten by some other centers, I can easily understand it. But yao still beats every single one of them(including DH) in any head to head matchup. Now DH can be claimed as the best center simply because he beat other centers by a larger margin? It's still up to debate, but I just think it's a very interesting perspective.
Basketball is a team sport, and ultimately the measure of how good you are individually should be based on how you help your team win games. The criteria for who's "the best", in my opinion, should be which player you'd rather have on your team if your goal is to win games, and ultimately win a championship. Practically speaking, that answer could change depending on te makeup of your team. If we want to abstract it for argument sake, we could frame it in this way: If you could choose any player to be your starting center without knowing who the rest of the teammates or coach is, who do you take?
well... if Yao beats someone in the championship match, I'm sure he'll be recognized as the best center, regardless of whether he get 2 rebounds less than howard or not. but since he didn't win a championship yet... let's wait a couple of years to claim the head-to-head stats are the end-all-be-all criteria first. hopefully, Yao won't make us wait long...
I agree with your team ball concept. That does complicate the comparison between players. On the other hand, yao does beat DH and bring the team win at the same time.
Dwight Howard is better. This isn't boxing or rock, paper, scissors...it's basketball. The guy who has the best stats and who is on the team with the best record is usually the best. Sure, Yao kills Dwight Howard in head to head matchups and as a Rocket fan I love seeing it but that doesn't mean a thing every other game of the year.
Its not a good way to compare players. In Boxing, the goal is to be the champion, but usually its one match and that decides it. In basketball, the goal is for your team to win a title and its a 7 game series. So in general the guy with the better stats is the better player. Sometimes it isn't the case, but usually it is.
the dam orlando magic is within the eastern division....and we all know that side sucks compared to the western.
You have to give it to Howard because he has a better number, but in a playoff run, I will take Yao in any night. I still recall that Howard got something like four points and six rebounds in the playoff game for the Detroit game. He basically quits the game by walking through the floor, this will never happen to Yao.
I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree if by "better stats" you mean "boxscore stats". It has been very well established by now that boxscore stats are not a fair nor comprehensive representation to a player's value or his basketball ability. It's not any more valid to say "DHo is the better player because he has better boxscore stats" than to say "Yao is the better player because he likes to eat chinese food". I understand that there's currently no perfect formula to quantify and compare the impact of different players and any such comparison will have to start and end with our subjective opinion... -- but if we are going to do it, let's at least not using boxscores as the sole reason to claim one is better.
Dwight pads his stats against inferior centers and fades against anyone who can play defense. He has no post game and his jumpshot is suspect. He's a little better rebounder but isn't nearly as good of a passer. In my opinion you throw out season stats and judge a person's performance against the best. When you do that it's no contest. Yao is the winner.
I agree with that. So, another way of looking at how impactful each player is would be adjusted +/-. The difficulty there is that though it can potentially cover more things that happen on the court, it's also much less reliable. Based on that as computed at basketballvalue, Yao is a +6.3 this season, and a +5 over the last two seasons. Dwight Howard, by comparison, is a +1.5 this season, and a +3.3 over the last two seasons. According to adjusted +/-, Hedo Turkoglu is actually more likely the Magic MVP than Dwight Howard. There's no one thing to look at. You take in all the information, watch them play, and come to a conclusion that way.
East is 229-217 against the West this year, and I think thats a big enough sample size to draw from. Top to bottom, East is better this year.
man who care who is the best center in the league. Let superman get his BEST CENTER IN THE LEAGUE title. I'll take Yao woopin up on "the best in the league" twice a year. It's a team game after all. I'll take the second best center in the league as long as we have a team that can go all the way anyday over BEST CENTER in the league. All the position rating is just crap. As long as second best woop up on BEST every year and second best get to the final first, that's all that matter!!!
maybe not top to bottom. only the top 3 teams in the east. there is an apparent drop off after #3 in the east. in the west, it's tight all the way from #1 to #9. but i could be proven wrong without having dug the data further. be curious to know what are the numbers such as the w-l records b/w the top 8 or 9 teams from each conf.
In general the guy that scores 25 points a game on 55% shooting is going to be better than the guy that scores 20 points a game on 50% shooting. Usually you can eyeball things like defense,leadership,selfishness of a player,killer instinct to adjust the stats so that Tim Duncan is better than Zach Randolph. But Kobe has better stats than Carmelo Anthony, and virtually everyone considers Kobe better. Yao has better stats than Shaq and most consider him better. With the Howard/Yao debate, its too close to call, which is why we always have this argument. They are basically equals IMO so I don't even know what the point of saying one is better is.
bball is a team sport, unlike tennis or golf. this can make player comparisons difficult (not that player comparisons, especially by we fans, are that meaningful to begin with). despite of that, imo, if we insist to make comparisons, the ultimate criterion is individual skill levels. e.g., the wolves have a horrible record, but you can't tell me al jefferson is inferior to eric dampier, or aaron brooks is better than steve nash or baron davis.
Yao isn't putting up 21/14 no matter what conference he is in or what team he plays for so the whole "padding stats" and "he plays in the east" arguments don't matter to me. I like Yao over Dwight in certain situations and in certain match ups but overall Dwight is a more effective player.
I think skills can be deceiving sometimes. It's about how you use your skills to help your team win. So your mental approach, your athleticism, and your durability all have to be part of the equation as well. I'd much rather have Paul Millsap than a more "skilled" Zach Randolph, for instance.
I understand what you mean....I look at it in several ways. 1) To the boxing aspect, Boxer (player) A hasn't really fought a great fighter in his 90 fights. It's pretty much what Micky said in Rocky III, those guys were bums and has-beens. Some of them where good fighters, but they weren't killers, like Clubber Lang (or even worse Ivan Drago type fighter). Where Rocky eventually found out for himself that the guy was no scrub and far beyond the average boxer. Same thing with Dwight, he might be better than Yao. Still, he can't play him, like he would the most of the other centers. I'm pretty sure if Howard, played against the great centers of 90s, he'd be neutralized or outplayed by them, especially against Dream, Shaq, and Ewing. It's one thing to be guarded by Kaman, Gasol, and Dampier and put great numbers, but then to be guarded Mourning, Mutombo, or even Kevin Willis and expect the same kind of production is a bit unreasonable don't you think. It is sometimes the case, like Rocky Marciano, why people sometimes question his record. He never fought Ali, Foreman, Louis (in his prime), Tyson (young, somewhat docile), Liston, or even an Lennox Lewis type fighter. If he fought some of those caliber fighters in his prime, I doubt he would've went undefeated. Especially, if he fought them more than once. Especially with those fighters having so much speed, power, and bulk. It's not to say he's not a great fighter or one of the best. It's just to say he's not as great as advertised or for his battles against other (inferior) players or fighters. It's somewhat similar to the Wilt Chamberlain argument. Would Wilt still be a great player, during the 80s and 90s (or even now). I think so, definitely, maybe the best in league. Would he score 100 or average over 40-50 ppg in season? I seriously doubt it, I believe if Russell could hold him 20 or 30 points. I think Mutombo, Olajuwon, and others could do the same or better being taller (bigger) and possibly more athletic and just as good defensively. Against that kind of competition, it would naturally make it kind of harder, while the positions would have gotten larger, longer and faster as well. Wilt also didn't have to deal with bulky (Oakley, Duncan, Milcic, and Mason) or super quick power forwards (Rodman, Marion). And, again centers as fast and quick as say Dwight Howard and David Robinson. That's a big chance from the average 6,5 - 210 pound centers of 60s. 2) It's matchup problems, like how Yao struggles against fronting forwards, undersized centers, and people, like Okur. Yao is actually a bad matchup for most traditional centers. For one, he is way too big to guard individually, unless the defender is very skilled and smart, like Garnett or Olajuwon. The only person in the league who could probably keep Yao consistently from scoring the low post --- is surprise Shaq, another 310+ pound guy. Next is Yao is very adept and skilled on offense, but so aren't other centers and power forwards. Yes, but they don't have 6 to 7 inch height advantage. Which is why it is probably easier for Dwight to shut down someone like Boozer or Gasol, than Yao. Dwight could start fronting him, like everyone else. But, then takes way his own strengths being on the glass or in the paint to get rebounds or stuffing penetrating wings and other post players. Those players who front Yao are usually forwards or not the team's primary rebounders. Those other forwards and centers can't play with their backs to basket, either. Especially if it gets physical, see Gasol, Nowitzki, Bosh, and Boozer. Body them up and they can't score, like that more times than not. Also, it is total fallacy to people who believe Yao can play against physical players. That couldn't be further from the truth, he struggles with "fronting, athletic physical" players (who are sometimes floppers) with someone directly behind Yao, where the physical play is in front him, instead of behind.. Again, most times he gets deep into paint with ball, he is going to score. Which is why Yao should sometimes be more in Dwight Howard mode, and get his points from Offensive rebounds. That's one of the things he could learn from Dwight Howard and older,classic centers is not always waiting for the ball. Let shooters either get open or let them take to the basket, if a good pass is not coming your way. Put himself in a good position for a rebound.
