Minister beaten after clashing with Muslims on his TV show

But the fact remains that they ARE there, and have been used to motivate man to do heinous things against other man in the name of God.

It is not cherry picking if they are right there, you can't ignore "an eye for an eye" as if it is not there, just because it says "Love thy neighbor" elsewhere in the same book.

I am sorry, I just think that mankind trying to describe or think they have a handle on what God is or isn't is just funny to me.

And the fact that we go back to uneducated people over 2000 years ago as somewhat more enlightened than we are today, again...silly.

But hey, what do I care, the Mayan calander ends on December 21, 2012....and even though they were not good enough to survive as a people, I am sure they got that calander thing right..........see, that is the problem I have....

To me Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judism....all are just the religions that lasted to today, but are no more viable than the Babylonian Gods, the Egyptian Gods, the Greek Gods, the Roman Gods, the Mayan Gods, the Incan Gods...etc...etc...etc.....it is just that they are the most popular beliefs....today.

And at the end of the day, man is a tribal or pack animal, and we follow the popular opinions as a species far too often when we should be thinking for ourselves.

DD

 

What matters is how the Koran is interpreted. Sadly, too many Muslims feel the Koran compels them to do violence.

 

The Taliban know alot more about Islam than all of us. They don't just agree with DaDa, but they go out and kill non-believers.

 

This actually makes a lot of sense.

 

DD you have to understand that you can interpret anything in this world in many different ways, but the best way to understand the true interpretation of these quotes you posted is to look at the historical context. There about a billion muslims in the world and only a small percentage of them interpret the quran the way they want for their own benefit. Here is a link that shows the other side of some of the quotes you posted.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544502

Our religion does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah).

The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, (…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.) (Al-An`am 6: 151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, (Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)) (Al-Israa’ 17: 33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah 5: 32)

However, your question is valid, then how come the Qur’an says, (kill them wherever you find them…) as it is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 191 and Surah An-Nisaa’ 4: 89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said:

(Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 190-194)

For your second quotation also read the full text:

(They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.?w (An-Nisaa’ 4: 89-91)

Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girga****es and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)

Btw I respect your opinion about not believing in islam or any other religions, but it's unfair when you let your personal views cloud your judgment on a religion that is embraced by 1/6th of the world. There are always two sides to an argument and unfortunately for muslims it is the wrong side that gets all the exposure.

 

It is precisely because the text is not consistent, nor was the message that causes the problem.

And a lot higher percentage believed in the Roman Gods at one time too.

Numbers of believers are meaningless, especially with Islam as a lot of those people are ignorant and only exposed to one set of teaching.

A guy in a village in Afganastan is not going to have access to multiple lessons when his mullah, his parents, and his government have all been teaching him the same stuff.

DD

 

Whenever there is confusion and inconsistency in the text of the quran it is almost always cleared up with the recordings of the hadith/hadeeth.

On your second point about numbers being meaningless.... I will agree with you on the fact that the overall number is probably pointless, but one number that doesn't lie is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world (even though its image has been tarnished through out most of the world) There must be a reason why Islam has one of the, if not the highest, conversion rates (I'm not 100% sure about this)

For people to convert to islam that means that they have done the required research and are not "ignorant and only exposed to one set of teaching."

Although, I do see your point about how many of them are only exposed to one set of teaching, but the same could be said about Christianity and all other religions.

 

2 wrongs don't make a right.

DD

 

too bad i hope the guy is ok but i guess this is in pakistan (?) so iam not surprised

on a side note i always find it funny when westerners think that other people around the world care what they think or need there approval. i used to think so too and then i studied up a bit and found out how many states and cultures give us the middle finger all the time and others make fun of us and our culture in the same way we do theirs

i think we are just much more aware of each other so we clash more

 

Your referencing a hadith that became popular from Salman Rushdie's book. It's not that difficult to your own research on the subject, at least while retaining a rudimentary understanding of the science of hadith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq

I suggest reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses#Transmission_of_the_narrative

A hadith that is not even sahih is hardly proof of anything.

 

It depends on which viewpoint you want take with Jesus.

- The diverse Christian view that he is God, the son of God, both, and even the Holy Spirit.
- The Muslim view that he was a Prophet and Messenger with a message (the Gospel)
- The Judaism approach that he was a false prophet and a blasphemer.

With the Christian view you have a few problems with consistency. Jesus affirmed the Old Testament (Torah). The Biblical Prophets (David, Noah, Moses, etc.) all had a different message than the accepted Christian outlook. There message, every single last one, was all the same - God is One. Now people are expected to believe God begot a son, or God begot his himself, or some other illogical assertion.

 

If anyone has specific questions about Islam, it is highly recommended to visit a local mosque and show interest in understanding Islam and I guarantee you they will treat you well and help you understand the Quran and the religion much better.

 

I ran into this great young black muslim imam at a local mosque in the southeast side of houston once to attend a lecture. the guy was born and raised here and he was so much knowledge about the bible and christianity and islam. he said he was a convert to islam and as a former christian had a really interesting view on things. iam not religious so at the time i was going around to learn more about diff religions. but the brother was extremely knowledgeable and really nice and took the time to explain things to me. it was like talking to a young energetic malcolm x

i read philosophy books and to me religion is just a philosophy of life and the afterlife so its really interesting stuff

anyways i googled the story here to learn more about it and came across this story and video from youtube

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/haeeIvbdWYI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/haeeIvbdWYI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

No more violent than the bible.

Unless you actually believe that people who work on Sundays should be killed.

 

The tailiban twist their knowledge to benefit them. They are not following islam properly...and ruin the image of the religion.

 

Yes, much like the MAJORITY of Muslims who stay silent while Islam is perverted on the international stage through violence, misogyny, and intolerance.

 

Just because you do not hear about it does not mean the majority of them stay silent. Is it the muslim's fault that the media only shows one side of the story? You would be surprised at how much this kind of behavior is not tolerated in the muslim community. I constantly hear preaches and lectures about how these "muslim" terrorists are depicting islam in the wrong way at the local mosques through out Texas (and even canada)

 

So, just because they are silent, that does not mean the majority are silent?

Huh?

 

When I say you...I literally mean YOU.

Example: The president gave a speech today, but just because YOU did not hear it does not mean it didn't happen.

 

DaDa, don't go quoting random websites as "reliable sources" for your blind attacks on the religion that spread from an obscure arabian peninsula to 1.6 billion people NOT BY SWORD, but by peaceful traders whose high manners and moral values attracted people from all religions and races to learn more about this great religion that forbids those merchants from stealing, overpricing, and cheating in general, and makes them so pleasant to deal with..

let me break it down for you as someone who has extensive knowledge of the quran (it's my religion, and it's written in the language I grew up speaking, not some translation).. the quran has no contradictions, it's clear cut: those "peaceful" verses are what's to be taken literally.. no one is "to kill the infidels" like you like to call them UNLESS they attack you first, and in that case, you retaliate exactly the same, not more, not less.. I repeat: YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO FORCE ANYONE TO ISLAM, NOR KILL/HARM THEM for not following your religion.. you will be punished by hell if you do, period.. now, if THEY do something offensive to you, like, you know, invade your land, kill thousands of your countrymen, flush down qurans down the toilets, then yes, you retaliate, HARD...

now, christians/jews/any other monotheistic religion followers are considered "ahl el kitab" (meaning: people of the book), a lot of those people will go to heaven if they do good things, feed the poor, not steal/cheat, believe in god, etc... muslims are allowed to eat from their food (hence my belief that the "halal" thing is absurd, since we can eat christian's and jew's food/meat) .. it's perfectly sinless and fine to marry a jew/christian, although it is better to marry a muslim.. but yeah, if you kill a jew/christian who hasn't done anything to you, you WILL BE PUNISHED BY HELL..

I swear to you, fellas.. I'm not making this up, I'm just simplifying it/stream lining it.. This is what islam is all about, not killing innocent people just because they're "infidels".. back when the islamic army marched to spread islam, they didn't kill people that didn't accept islam, the offered them to convert or they could stay as they like as long as they're paying some sort of tax to the islamic government .. they didn't kill anyone, they didn't attack anyone..

open a history book for god's sake, and resist the urge to believe anything you hear from B.S sources trashing islam just so you could fulfill your preconceived negativity and hatred toward this amazing religion..

questions are welcome..