Take them to church 99er AMEN! <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UQgUvY9wZsY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UQgUvY9wZsY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Yes. I don't get this notion that people who can objectively pick out what little negatives Hakeem had is automatically dismissed as someone who never watched Hakeem personally. I would think that people who automatically commence butt smooching speeches on Hakeem without much thought into it are the ones who would seem to just watch the youtube clips and never watched Hakeem personally. I think it was more like as he became more established in the NBA, his steps were more accepted and less called.
Wow.... the way you guys are hyping up Hakeem you guys make him sound like GOAT. You guys do realize that when Duncan retires, he'll be considered the greatest Power Forward ever. Could the same be said about Hakeem in terms of Centers? Nope. He'll have to compete against Shaq for that 4th spot, as the top 3 positions have been reserved by Wilt, Kareem, and Russell. So this comparison is not out of hand. All in all, Duncan has better fundamentals, but overall Dream is the better player.
I got much respect for Timmy but Hakeem was not called the Dream just because it rhymed. To me what separates Hakeem from Tim are the creativity, athleticism, filthy/nasty/beastly/dominant performances against HoF players in the play-offs, defensive plays that make you wonder how he made the play work, the ability to go off for 40+ points on anyone including "MVP's" in the play-offs... Imho, you put Hakeem version 92, 93, 94 & 95 on the Spurs team featuring Parker and Manu instead of TD and the Spurs would have done back to back as a min, possibly 3-peated.
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Because those who have watched Hakeem extensively know he didn't travel on his moves. You can be objective all you want, but when you are wrong, you will get called out on it. Duncan is a great great player, but he is not more fundamentally sound than Hakeem.
Suddenly Hakeem morphed into a 6'6 guard. yeah dream had guard-like quickness. I guess that was the point of the clip.
I'm not weighing in on this discussion but I do have a question about that clip. I couldn't tell if Jordan touched the ball with his left hand either time he brought it near the ball but, assuming he didn't, is that particularly play actually a traveling violation? There isn't a rule, to my knowledge, that you have to take one step per dribble. He did look like he carried the ball but, aside from that, I don't think there was any traveling. I'm sure he traveled on many other occasions but was this actually a good example?
Wow, even though I watched Hakeem myself, I guess I will take your word on it....NOT. You have stated your stance with such compelling force that I bow down to your rational reasoning. Whatever, dude. You can have your "Does not! Does to!" argument. You're still wrong though, but who cares. Recommence Hakeem IS God thread.
Duncan would rank behind Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Hakeem, and probably Shaq too. The greats at the 4 spot aren't nearly as great as those at center.
Right, and your arguments were equally as compelling... Hakeem took steps... cuz I said so! Like I said, no one who watched Hakeem play would say he traveled.
If you have truly watched Hakeem as much as you say you have we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we. Yeah, Hakeem is a god as far as basketball players go. He would have dominated in any era, key word dominate. Thats what he did and made it look easy.
Like I said, I watched Hakeem myself and he got away with some steps. Barkley (whatever you think of him as a bball expert, he's still someone who saw Hakeem personally) joked he'll never call out the traveling anymore on Dream when Chuck joined the Rockets. Barkley's observation > some member named CHI on a board So nyaaa.
What made Hakeem so special is that he could pull off moves, without traveling, that any other post player would trip over themselves with. In '97, versus Utah, all the Jazz fans were calling for traveling on Hakeem as soon as he touched the ball. The commentators were saying that Hakeem's footwork was so refined that what looked liked traveling really wasn't. I know you are just trying to be the cool kid who goes against the grain, so I'll give you a pass.
Duncan has poor fundamentals when it comes to shooting. Hakeem was a far better shooter, even early in his career. There is no need to justify that point. Check out some of the shots in the clip below... and remember that was early in Hakeem's career. Duncan couldn't dream of shooting like that on his best day. Duncan's dribbling skills are average, at best, for a big man. On top of developing better ballhandling skills, Hakeem was able to use this skill combined with his quickness to beat defenders off the dribble regularly. Duncan does that every once in a while and it's extremely mechanical-looking... almost like watching Battier dribble. Duncan is not better when it comes to passing fundamentals. Hakeem was at least as good, if not better. Some of the passes Hakeem made were ridiculous. I was watching a clip the other day from one of the Rockets-Celtics Finals games and Hakeem made one of the sickest passes I've ever seen a big man make (4:23 mark in the clip below). Once again, this was from early in Hakeem's career. He literally looked like a PG on that particular play. And that is just one of many examples, of course... an example that not only displayed Hakeem's great court vision and passing skills but also his incredible athleticism. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/O4rcYQYhmpI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/O4rcYQYhmpI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Defensively, Duncan is elite, fundamentally. So was Hakeem. And Hakeem was easily the better overall defensive player when you consider all aspects of defense (rebounding, shotblocking, steals, one-on-one defense, help defense, etc...) I'm not sure I accept Rosen's argument that Duncan is a better rebounder, even considering the RR stats durvasa presented earlier in the thread. Hakeem played during an era where there were a lot more quality bigs. I don't think Duncan would have fared any better than Hakeem as a rebounder back during Hakeem's prime, playing against better competition. Duncan has the privilege of playing in a watered down era when it comes to great bigs. On top of good rebounding fundamentals, Hakeem was much more athletic which further added to both his rebounding and defensive prowess. All in all, Hakeem actually wins a fundamentals comparison over The Big Fundamental. Throw in Hakeem's far, far, far, far, far superior athleticism to his already superior skill set and fundamentals... and the advantage gets even bigger in favor of Hakeem. Hakeem would bascially own Duncan just about every time they played if they came into the league at the same point. It would be ugly. Duncan should consider himself fortunate to not have had to live through the embarrassment... yes, embarrassment. You could make a good argument that Hakeem was the most talented individual basketball player of all-time, regardless of position. He had the total package... a complete skill set as well as insane athleticism, especially for his position. He dominated at both ends of the court. Of course, guys like Oscar Robertson, Wilt and Jordan, among others, need to be in that conversation but I think a lot of outsiders would laugh at that notion simply due to the fact that Hakeem didn't get quite as much hype playing in Houston. Number of championships is often an overstated way of measuring individual players since that is dependent on so many things beyond the individual player (quality of the rest of the team, quality of management/coaching, era/competition, etc...). Oscar Robertson actually once stated that he believed the single most important factor that leads to a team winning championships is the quality and dedication of management. If Oscar says that, I believe it. For the record, I didn't grow up in Houston so I didn't watch Hakeem play as much as many native Houstonians but I have a wealth of family members (cousins and uncles) that have lived here since the early 80s. To this day, they still talk about Hakeem endlessly. Listening to them is like listening to tinman... only in real life.
We had a similar discussion last year and although I really like Tim Duncan and he will go as one of the best big man ever I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is arguably one of the best players and centers to play the game. No competition there.
the thing that made me feel uncomfortable was that rosen stated td is more fundamentally sound than akeem; otherwise it's a decent piece. and why did i know once tinman comes in, it will come down to this type of comment?
