Did no one see our record at the top of this post of our team with and without Francis? Few players in the NBA have that kind of impact on their team. How is Nash a better leader that that? Is he the difference between his club being the worst in the league (as our 2-25 record indicates) and being an average team (as the 26-29 record indicates)? There is no way in hell that he has that kind of impact. How much more of an impact player, playmaker, team leader can you be than to be the difference between the WORST team in the NBA and an average club?
Nash's decision making skills are far better than Francis but that has to do with the fact he has been playing longer and knows what it takes to be an effective point. Francis will eventually get there but right now Nash is a better point. It also helps that everybody on the floor with Nash can score which makes his job a little easier.
Dallas was LAST in the league in turnovers, and among the top in assists, you guys don't think that the player that controls the ball over 90% of the time is somewhat responsible? Nash is good. Francis is good. Nash is smarter. Francis is more athletic. I would not trade Francis for Nash, but I wish that Francis had the same basketball intellect that Nash has. DaDakota
I think that the players who can consistently knock down open jumshots are even more responsible. Francis got players the ball in good position. Its not his fault they can't hit a simple jumpshot. Assists require the work of at least two people. One person to get the shooter the ball and a shooter to hit the shot. If either person fails in their role, then there is no assist. So who would you rather be passing the ball to on the perimeter, Tmo and KT or Nowitzki and Finley?
JeffB, Francis is AWFUL at running the fast break, he is adequate at passing the ball to open teamates. I will concede that Dallas has better shooters, but that does not excuse the turnovers problem. Guys until Steve takes his team to the playoffs, this is a moot point. For now, Nash can say scoreboard.....and he is right. DaDakota
LOL, Nash can say scoreboard. Hell, Tony Parker, Derek Fisher, Kenny Anderson, and Chucky Atkins can all say scorerboard so I guess they're all better than Steve, right?
Nash is amazing. He doesn't have half of Steve's athleticism but his basketball smarts are 5x better than Steve's. He knows how to score, create for teammates, run an offence and pass with the best of them. He's a better player than Steve, hands down.
i agree...and if i was planning on winning today and not in the future i would trade francis for nash...
Francis is awful at running the fast break. However, most of his turnovers don't come from the fastbreak. They come from halfcourt isolations. This is not an excuse but a reality. When you have to constantly score the ball against three defenders--as your teams number one option--because your teammates are inept at fundamental ball and your coach asks you to, you will turn the ball over--no matter what position you play. Nash hasn't taken anyone to the playoffs. But he has had the opportunity to ride there along side Nowitzki. So until Steve gets teammates of equal or greater quality as Nash's this is a moot point. For now, Nash can always pass to #41, #4 or even #45... and watch his teammates hit an open J.
The reason these discussions never end, is because you guys fail to see that you're disagreeing with nothing. DaDakota is saying that Nash is making his teammates better, by knowing where to give them the ball, and when. That's a PG's duties. But Dallas' starting line-up has been much more consistent than Houston's. Over Francis 3 years, we've had major changes to the line up each year. Twice a year sometimes. DaDa, you're right. Nash is doing everything you're saying. But Francis hasn't been given the chance to show he can do the same. Plus, how do you expect Francis to average more assists than Steve Nash when he's our primary scorer? The primary scorer on other teams gets 3 assists a game from the PG? Are you discounting those 3 assists? Nash has proven himself. Francis hasn't been given the chance to. But I can never expect Francis to average more than 7.5 assists as long as he's the first option on offense, and the second option (Cat) creates his own shot, thus discounting the 2 top scorers from assisting. Ideally, Francis will average these numbers: 24.5ppg, 7.5apg, 5.8rpg, 2.8TO I think it's fair to assume that those numbers would be supreme considering his position/situation.
Payton and Andre Miller are 1st options and they average more than 7.5 assists. Same for Marbury if I'm correct.
Exactly! I think these discussions too often lack context--a guy's role on his team, team style of play, etc. While we all care about the Rockets and want to pin point the reason(s) for missing the playoffs, we tend to "miss the forest for the trees." Sure Francis makes mistakes but he isn't "stupid"--as folks once labled Nash--or the sole reason for failure. Moreover, when these discussions boil down to a "player X is better than player Y" argument without examing context, the discussions quickly become pointless.
In this age in the NBA, you can't have a point gaurd carrying your team. It's no wonder Rockets can't win. Francis is suppose to be creating plays for others but he's the one running them. Unless Francis is willing to play SG, he cannot be the "go to" guy on the Rockets. He must accept secondary status (unfortunately we don't have a primary). Nash on the other hand knows that Nowitzki is the primary player for Dallas. He knows his job is not to be the best on the team, but make sure Nowitzki is. That is why he is the better point gaurd (but not player).
DaDakota, You seem to forget that Nick the quick is putting up numbers for Dallas and plays significant minutes in 4QTR of games. I like Nash's game, however, Steve would do even more with a team like Dallas. Plus Steve's rebounding would help Dallas tremendously. They're getting killed on the boards. Steve and Nash are not great defenders. Point guards have been known to torch both of them.
BTM, how much of a primary option is Andre Miller really? SERIOUSLY? About Payton. Well. There are 2 things I want to say. For the past 3 years, Payton has been the better player than Francis. It's really simple. Payton is just a better PG right now. Second only to Jason Kidd. Apart from that, Payton has Vin Baker. You may not like Vin, but fact of the matter is, he gets points in the post. Then there's Lewis. This is a shot at him, and support for Francis. Lewis can not, under any circumstances, create his own shot. He just can't. He's not able to. Payton is brilliant for making him look so good. But what does this all mean? Francis still doesn't have the cast Payton does. Payton has Baker and Lewis. Francis doesn't have Cat, because he doesn't get many assists there. So who else on the team? Exactly. I'm nto surprised about the turnovers or assists. If he could average the same numbers with this year's cast compared to a healthy one, then why don't we trade the starters and start the backups? There's nothing to argue here, because no one is disagreeing. DaDakota never said Francis CAN'T or WON'T EVER do what Nash is doing. He's saying this is what Nash is doing and this is what Francis is not.
DaDakota For the most part, you're "preachin' to the choir". I feel about 95% the way you do about the subject, but generally don't bring it up. The majority of posters find a slam dunk more exciting and memorable than a no look pass to a wide open teammate for a fastbreak layup. That's the way it is and (for the most part) I've learned to except it. Steve Francis is one of the more gifted athletes in the NBA. But that is also a curse as he relies on his athleticism to force plays that shoudn't be attempted. What will be Steve's value when he no longer has amazing hops or the quick enough first step to blow past a defender? Will he have learned the game by that time? Will he have learned how to get a good entry pass into the low post? Will he have learned to come off a screen to get open? Will he have learned to (as Calvin preaches) stop and pop by then? Maybe. Nash knows it now. There is a reason MJ is a shadow of his former self but still managed to almost get a sorry team like the Wizards into the playoffs. He has learned the game. Steve didn't have such a great All Star game. Were the other WC players doing their best Rockets roster imitation? Perhaps it was headaches? Or 1st time jitters? I don't know. You tell me. I will admit to not seeing the game but my hunch is he doesn't know how to get the ball into the low post or help finish a break or perhaps were a shooter likes to get the ball and when. Do I want to trade SF for Nash? Hell no! Do I have a higher level of expectation for SF? Absolutely. The Rockets are one low post presence away from getting close to playing in the second round. With the assumption that we are all Rockets fans, then it is safe to say we all have the same dream/desire/goal...another NBA Championship in Houston. It won't happen until Steve learns that there is more to basketball than slam dunks, mid-air heroics, and cross-overs. Mental intensity and sheer force of will do not translate into making good decisions on a basketball court. Unless I am totally mistaken, this is what DaD intended to convey.
Sane, He's saying Nash is the better player and he's not. Is he a better at his pure PG duties at this point? Yes, but that doesn't make him the better player. He's not the better PG either, because Steve would mean more to any team playing the PG than Nash would to any other team. Does that mean Steve's PG skills are better? No, but it means that Steve gives a lot more to the PG position than just a floor general. He gives another great rebounder, he gives a scorer, along with still being solid at his PG duties (ie bringing the ball up the court, setting up the offense, distributing and leading). Nash just gives you a PG, whereas Steve gives you a PG AND a rebounder AND a great scorer. Saying Nash is better at the PG just because he fills his primary PG duties a little better is like saying Vizquel is better than A-Rod because he fills his primary SS duties (defense). There are other facets to the game than just the minimum of what you're typically required and that's my point. Just because Nash is a little better of a floor general doesn't make him the better player nor does it even make him the better PG. Going above and beyond the minimum requirements for a typical role in sports is generally considered a defining characteristic of greatness.
I think that's the problem. DaDakota is saying Francis doesn't do X, Y and Z while some people are arguing that Francis does do X and Y if not Z, but doesn't have the teammates to make those things he does look successful. In other words, my argument is that both Nash and Francis do "point guardy" things but Nash's teammates do their jobs so well as to increase assists by hitting open shots, passing the ball, etc. thus making those "point guardy" things look even more "point guardy." Moreover, I think people are sick of the Francis bashing and are tired of people criticizing without giving credit where credit is due.
