IMO the ABA is only interested in $ and has not done a good job regulating law schools which has created too many lawyers and not enough good jobs. The ABA has granted accreditation to "for profit" law schools...these schools are independent and private and don't deny they're in it for the money. Example, http://www.charlottelaw.org/ I'm waiting for the South Harmon Institute of Technology School of Law.
That is only in the large firms. My experience was very different. I graduated just outside the top third. I got a job as in house corporate counsel. Sadly, in the economic downturn at the end of 2001, the entire SW region was shut down. I stayed through the next 5 months to wind it down. It took me 10 months to land another position. It was with a very successful debtor's attorney. Over the next 2 and a half years, I forged a reputation (as well as making a decent salary) as being a very good debtor's lawyer. I was named to the judge's committee on the new court website and other technology. Then I had the bright idea to open my own firm. Many others had done it before me. This was NOT the right time to do it. The number of cases being filed plummeted in the SDTX. A year and a half later, I realized that I had showered myself in debt to keep it afloat and it was time to cut my losses. I made a phone call to a creditor's lawyer I know. A week later, I met her partner. A couple of days later, I had a job. Unless you are going the big firm route, you have to pay your dues and get a reputation. You have to really build your career and not be afraid to take your lumps along the way.
I am a 1L at UC Hastings and the school's "ranking" is 38 this year, but all the attorneys in CA I have talked to say the school is considered a Top 20 in the CA legal community. I just interviewed with 3 medium to large firms and considering I am a 1L in a ****ty economy, that is very good b/c firms don't look to hire 1Ls even in a good economy. On top of that, I do not think I am at the top of my class since they won't rank us until May. (I don't even think I am in top 20 %). My parents aren't lawyers so its not like I had connections at the firms either. So the point of my rumbling is: 1. Research the school you go to and the place you want to practice: If I had based my decision on the rankings alone, I would not have chosen this school b/c I didnt know much about it like most people outside the legal community. It is a stand-alone law school w/o an undergrad so nobody knows about it. But the respect it has among lawyers and the alumni system make it a great school w/ a 95% employment rate w/in 6 months of graduation. 2. Make sure it is for you: I know 3 people that dropped out w/in the first 2 weeks and some more after that. Law school is expensive and non-refundable. So make sure it is something you want to do b/c the work is a **** load and you will be miserable if you don't like it. 3. There is never enough lawyers: Thats what one of my professors told me last semester and I didn't believe him. But now that I have talked to a lot of attorneys, I realized how small the legal community really is. So I think the statement that there are too many lawyers is completely wrong. 4. CONNECTIONS AND REPUTATION!: While law school, teachers, admins, and students place a great deal of emphasis on grades, making connections and keeping a good reputation are just as important. Many of my 2L and 3L friends have jobs b/c of people they met in receptions and other social events. If you hit it off with someone and they like you, they are going to want to hire you b/c they will more than likely enjoy working with you. And having a good reputation is also important. You don't want to be know as the "drunk, table dancer" b/c you will be black-balled. Its a small community and word gets around. 5. Be a HUMAN: People (outside the top big firms that only care about money) want to hire people that can have fun and are interesting. So its important to attend social events, be in organizations, and the like. Considering all those things, its still a great degree. Law school sucks and there is a **** load of reading, pressure, and competition, but if you realize that its only 3 years (actually 2 since the last year is a breeze until the Bar) you can make it fun.
pretty much. if you're going to a school not ranked in the top 25-35, it's not a very sound investment.
hastings is a terrific school. i'd love to go to ucla law, but if i don't get in, hastings is definitely one of my top choices afterward.
Any advice for a freshman undergrad business major at UT who is determined on getting admission to a top 20 law grad school? TIA.
I quit law school after completing 60 hours. My GPA sucks and I went to a mediocre (at best) law school despite having the resume to get into much more highly ranked law schools. I keep asking myself this same question as I consider going back to finish out and get the JD. Luckily, I only have about $40k in debt. I think I could finish the JD and get out of school with about $55k in debt if I were pretty conservative. I'm not really sure whether I should just start over or go ahead and get the JD since I've invested a decent sum of money and time into it. On one hand, I have no desire to work at a private firm (and probably couldn't get hired at one), and don't love (or even like) the law enough to wanna invest even more time and money prepping for/taking the bar only to work a job with crap pay for several years. In my experience, I would say, no, law school is not worth it for the vast majority of people that go. The one common denominator among most of my peers was that they were continuously stressed, unhappy, and worried about the type of job they would get postgrad. There was also a large subculture of alcohol abuse and drug use in my law class. All of this being said, there did seem to be a few people that I met that seemed to genuinely enjoyed the experience of law school. In general, the people that seemed to be most happy were those that were married, had children, or were a little bit older than the average law student. I think the difficult thing for most people in law school (including myself), is that there are very few definite answers to any question or assignment. You look through a hundred cases, none of which say the exact same thing, and must formulate a clear rule in order to argue the law in a manner that benefits the party you represent. In my experience, this task was extremely stressful and taxing on my every day life. Doing legal research can be an extremely lonely task in the midst of a high stress environment. I give major kudos for the people that can thrive in the role of an associate that's cranking out brief after brief...but no salary would make the stress, loneliness, and absence of personal fulfillment that often accompanies law school worth it for me (again, only for me...I'm sure there are people that love doing the things I hated).
Exactly why I could never practice law on any terms but my own. Not willing to make those sacrifices. That culture wouldn't like me much...and I know I don't like it. The practice of law...the way I've been able to pull it off...has afforded me a ton of liberty, including the liberty to be involved in other business ventures. I think I would have regretted not going to law school. I'm pretty certain that's the case.
LOL - sorry but this sounds like something a law student or a tenured professor would say. The legal market now is incredibly oversaturated, there are many many many out of work lawyers now, three major firms have gone under (Thelen, TPW, Heller Ehrman) with several other big names possibly in trouble, firms are firing partners - the same bloodbath that occurred in finance is trickling into its secondary industries. And that's only at the high end, at the lower levels the oversaturation is just as bad if not worse.
I have to agree with this. It is bad at the big firms (Baker Botts, etc). Mid-size to small firms are struggling to survive, let alone hire. I never thought that I would hear of a "starving lawyer," yet there are scores of them.
I'm about to graduate with a JD/MBA from Top 20 schools. The question you ask really depends on what your son wants from life. Do you want to live to work, or work to live? If you want to get by while you mate, have children and die then I'd suggest the MBA. You don't learn much more than what you can get out of a Accounting and Finance text book, and it doesn't make you smarter but you can possibly get a 100k job that will pay the bills. The MBA is merely a networking party and the MBA is a key that opens doors to higher paid jobs. You'll need some job experience before you go to business school, unless you're a JD/MBA, in which case, law school is enough experience. If you want to work to live, then the MBA is the way to go. As someone who is about to earn a JD/MBA, I have little to no respect for the MBA. But the JD, that will make you great . . . if you let it (work hard and allow the thinking process to take root). You don't have to go farther than this board to figure out the strength of the JD. Just go to the Debate forum. People who contribute to the discussion are folks like MadMax, Refman, SamFisher, Obama & Biden (JDs). People who ruin the board are like Trader Jorge and George W. Bush (MBAs). The 1L at Hastings mentioned that there aren't enough lawyers. That's not true. There's not enough GOOD lawyers. If your son wants to be a good lawyer, there are many positions available (not at the moment but your son will be graduating in 3 years and the economy will be much different), but for bad lawyers, there aren't many jobs out there. (I'm trying to dumb this down as much as possible because so much of this advice is really dependent on what school he goes to, how well he does, what practice area, region, etc that your son wants. So if you were to give us more information, then I could help you much more. The 1L at Hastings generally has some good advice, but he's still just a 1L.) If your son pursues the JD, he better be willing to work his ass off for at least the first year. If you go to a low-tier school like University of Houston, you better be in the top 10% while not being an uber-dork because you'll have to interview well too. This, mind you, is what you must do to get into Big Law. Big Law pays around 140k to 160k as a starting salary. Big Law is hurting right now. They hired as if the good economy was going to last forever. In fact, they continued to hire like that even this Fall. Just last week, a thousand people were fired from law firms and it is continuing. This is a shock to the law community because law is one of the more stable industries in the country; its one of the last to be touched in a bad economy. A friend of mind at DLA Piper (Chicago) was in his first year of his law career, had worked for about 6 months. Life looked pretty damn good earning 160k coming out of school. He just got fired last week due to the economy, and as a 1st year associate with little training, he's SCREWED perhaps for life because nobody is going to take him in order to train him when there are already experienced unemployed lawyers who would take his job right now, and he is stuck with law school debt. It makes me kind of mad that a firm would fire a first-year associate just because they put faith in that firm when they accepted the job over other firms and now he has NOTHING. If he had remained at the firm I'll be at, he'd still have a job (but he wanted to be in Chicago for his fiance who is pursing her MBA there). Tragic story, I know. If you want an idea of Big Law firm life then you can go to a legal blog: www.abovethelaw.com Things are bad right now, but your son will have many years for the economy to turn-around so it shouldn't be much of a worry. There are other options as well of course: small firms, mid-size firms, solo practitioner. The great thing about the JD is that it is so flexible and respectable. You can go into all sorts of industries with it, not just law. A lot of people are disparaging the Big Law lifestyle here. However, if you work hard there for a 4-5 years, then you may have the chance to go in-house counsel where you work as legal counsel for a business. These people get paid fairly well and work 9-5ish with very easy hours. Sam Fisher has this lifestyle. How nice would it be to get paid well to surf Clutchfans all day? In the end, however, I can't give good advice unless I know more about your son's interests. The JD isn't for everyone.
I was going to say the exact same thing. Outsourced IT work has to be the biggest joke ever. Companies think that they are saving all this money while they end up with a worse product and then end up spending money on guys like me to come in and fix the mess.
I network with other small firms and I'm not personally finding this to be true. Smaller firms run leaner...and it doesn't take as much to keep the doors open as it does in big shops with marble floors. I have to say, my business does a lot better when the economy sucks. Fraud that's been there all along rises to the surface...receivables slow down for my clients....when things are smooth, they sail...when things are rough, they are more likely to call me...and other opportunities pop up tangentially to the practice of law (particularly with regard to distressed financial assets).
When you represent individuals, as opposed to businesses, it gets to be tough. People have a lot more legal problems, but do not have the money to pay for legal services. My former practice is a good example. There are PI attorneys I know that are wondering when they will have to go find a job. There are several small bankruptcy practitioners that have been doing this a long time that are barely filing any cases these days. It is a matter of time before they either retire or have to go do something else.
I strongly disagree. I hear all the time how doctors and lawyers will always be needed, so therefore you will always do well in these 2 fields. The point is that when you have too many people in one field and not enough positions, then it will be very difficult to find good jobs. Isn't this what happened when law schools were popping up like crazy? Many fresh grads in lower tier schools can't find jobs, and even if they do, the salary isn't as much as before (real income). Physicians on the other hand are prospering. The american medical association has successfully limited med schools and salary has been continuously growing...only to be cut down by reimbursement issues and insurance companies. Still, it's much better to be a physician these days.
If a JD allows you to earn a living and post on the BBS all day like Max ,Ref and Sam then I'd say "by all means"".
1. Agreed. A wing of our practice is estate planning. We have a lady who is board certified and developed her practice in that area over the last 25 years..so we're fortunate that way. That's the primary part of our practice that relies on business from individuals. 2. But...individuals in Houston, Texas aren't feeling this recession like the rest of the country. This isn't Michigan or California or Florida. That might change (though I don't think it will nearly to the degree to match the mortgage crisis in those areas)... people here who had the money to hire attorneys before...for the most part have the money to hire attorneys now. If you work in mergers and acquisitions, then yeah you're slow everywhere. 3. Yeah, PI attorneys got slammed by tort reform. I've found a few on the other side of commercial cases now...who are clearly new to commercial litigation. BK law changed a ton, too, no doubt. But I'm thinking a bad economy means more BK, particularly if there ends being a new component with respect to mortgages.
I've recently decided to pursue law school and started my LSAT prep (taking the test in June) has anyone taken a Princeton Review course? Any pros/cons? I don't think I can get into any top tier school with my GPA even if I nail a high score on the LSAT. Just always wanted to study law/become a lawyer and now seems like as good a time as any other. Been out of school for close to 2 years now and feel that I can buckle down for the three years of law school. btw my gpa is a 3.1 from UT with 2 bachelor degrees in Advertising and Government. Hoping to make it into St. Mary's or South Texas realistically
I just finished a PR class this fall and took the LSAT in Feb. I would recommend taking another course (Kaplan, testmasters, etc) or doing self study using the Powerscore book series. I will be starting my application cycle next year as well, best of luck to you.
