One thing I've noticed in several posts on this site lately is the odd evaluation of Kenny Thomas' trade value...Almost every trade proposal has us offering Thomas etc., and getting high value in return...Thomas, picks etc. for Garnett...KT, Cato and picks for Grant Hill....Kt and pick for Odom....and this odd double standard keeps hitting me in the face...If his trade value is so high, why does everybody and his aunt want to trade him? From what I've read throughout the league, Thomas is regarded as a decent but limited young player who can score if given pt, but doesn't add a whole lot more, and who had a pretty good season amidst a team decimated by injuries..Now that description, if accurate, would help explain why we're so hot to trade him; people who watch him a lot think his value has peaked...the thing is, other gm's would know this too. I really think people on this board rate his trade value too high. In my opinion, Thomas is a hard working player with above average 1-on-1 scoring ability who is limited by both his tweener stature and his defensive shortcomings...A possible valuable contributor on a good bench, but if he's starting for you, you're not going anywhere...His primary value, by far, is scoring, and he's not good enough at that to be a no. 1 or 2 scorer on a good team, plus most of his offense is the isolation variety, not within the flow of an offense ( not neccessarily his fault)...ok, what have you got? Either a thicker, slower 3 who's at most a #3 scorer on a good team,and can't defend most 3s one on one, or a smaller, quicker 4 who can beat most 4s off the dribble, but needs iso to do that because he can't consistently establish position in the low post against stronger players, and gets out- muscled inside...This is NOT a very valuable trade commodity... Let's face it...we were not a very good team this year...Check the rosters of other bad teams...They always have limited players who have pretty good years, because SOMEONE has to account for your points, and we're not so bad we're going to be limited to 50 a night...Look at the relative trade value of Marc Jackson coming off last year...Would you want to base a trade of a valuable player around getting a Wesley Person? Or a Kurt Thomas? Or a Voshan Leonard? Or, take a better example...Jeff McInnis...Decent young pg, probably has as much or more upside than Thomas...and will do a pretty good job for a mediocre team...but would you, in your wildest dreams, build the Rockets' future contention around Jeff McInnis as our starting pg? And I'd say he's better than KT....EVery year there are decent guys who have good years on bad or injury-plagued teams...that's the nature of the beast. But we, as Rockets' fans, wouldn't be fooled by scoring numbers inflated by playing on a bad team...and neither would other gm's... I'm NOT saying Thomas is a bad player...he's pretty good.And yes, he puts up pretty good rebound numbers, if he's a 3, average if he's a 4, and that's on a very poor rebounding club. But his role on a contender will be limited, and I wish guys in here would stop assuming that other gm's will build around a guy like him, when they wouldn't themselves.
Jag, We have too many PF's on this team. One guy is a future superstar, another guy is overpaid and coming off a season long injury, and the third guy is Kenny Thomas. KT's always brought up in trades because he's probably the most attractive player to other teams. KT has turned into a very good defensive player this year, what he lacks in height, he makes up in quickness. He's turned the "slap the ball" technique into an art form. Whenever a guy tries to post him up, the second the ball is within reach, KT is on top of it. So he's not just a 1 dimensional player... I think he'd be very attractive to an Eastern conference team in need of a PF...
Let's make this quick. First of all, I have neevr assumed KT to be a starter for a team that is ni the playoffs or near. Maybe a team that's rebuilding and needs a temporary solution. He was an MIP candidate this year, but his injuries hurt that. He's young. He's shown he's willing to work in the offseason to improve himself. He can score on bigger guys, and will always put up a solid effort on D. Tim Duncan complemented his D. Payton says he's an excellent PF. Now, all this, but at what price? 1 year. Not even $2M. How's that for someone who can come off the bench and feast off the other team's bench players? he can very easily be the man on a team's bench, and be a leading candidate for 6th man of the year too. The ONLY knock on him, is his size. That's it. I think that's absolutely great for a bench player, don't you think? In a trade, very hot commodity. you ask why WE are trading him then? Because we have Mo T and Eddie Griffin. I would readily keep him backing up Griff, if we could get rid of Mo T's contract. How's that?
The three principal reasons why Kenny Thomas has good trade value: 1) He is coming off a good and productive season. 2) He is making a low salary (~1.2m). 3) He only has one year left on his deal. While 1 and 2 are self-explanatory, #3 is very important. Most teams are clawing each other trying to open up cap room for next summer when the great crop of free agents becomes available (Duncan, Kidd, McDyess, Payton, etc.). Thomas would be easy to (a) dump off the books next summer; or (b) keep around at ~200% of his low salary while his team looks for free agents. Under (b), once the free agents are signed, Kenny could be re-signed for any amount after having occupied less than $2.5M against the cap during that summer. Overall, Kenny is a VERY attractive commodity in trades. I'm sure his name comes up often in discussions with other GMs. However, I don't quite agree with others who say he could get us an All-Star. He could be one piece in a package for one, however; but that would likely take OUR lottery pick, too.
1) How is Thomas more attractive to other teams than " a future superstar"? So, essentially, what you're saying is that he's more attractive than another 1 dimensional 4 who just signed a questionable contracts, and then suffered an injury serious enough to have him miss an entire year? Agreed...but being the tallest midget in the room doesn't make you tall... 2) Re: defense...I don't agree, but I assume that you saw him play more than I did this year, so I'll give you the nod...would feel better if anyone had any numbers to support the contention, because he would have needed to seriously improve to be an average defender... 3) I'm obviously not being clear...I'm not saying he's a bad player...just limited. And when compared with the value of some of the guys people are suggesting trading him for ( with Cato, picks, whatever), it's beyond biased to think other teams will see him as more than what we do...
1) Do I think he'd make a valuable bench player? Yes, I stated that in my opening...But does that explain the level of value attributed to him in trade suggestions? I'd say no...
Can you show me these trade proposals where he's been offered for a star player along with "a pick". Mo Taylor is 6'10, 260. I think that's legit, don't you think?
1) There are several, but I don't know how to post a quote from another thread in this one, and besides, I already gave examples... 2) What does Taylor's stature have to do with anything I've said? If you're refering to my comment that he's one-dimensional, I'm talking about his play on production, not potential. And if you're talking about my midget analogy, it had to do with ability, not actual size...To avoid confusion, I should have said being the oldest child doesn't make you an adult....or some such thing.
Well I said he's the most attractive because he'd be cheaper to trade for than Griffin. KT's better than Taylor on D, KT's very good on the defensive end actually. This is a Rockets board, people try to figure out how to improve the team, so they're going to try to work out trades for a guy that other teams might have interest in. Well it's very difficult to provide numbers to support KT's defense. You'd just have to watch him play in order to respect his defense, in the beginning of the year, I couldn't stand watching KT play because I thought he was just average on defense. Over the season he's won me over though and I think he is a very good defensive PF. Of course he doesn't have the ideal size, but he does compensate for that in other areas. I agree with Sane here, what trade proposals are you talking about? The only reasonable trade proposal dealing Kevin Garnett involved trading Griffin... Anyone that actually thinks we could get a star by trading KT, Cato, etc and a pick is a moron, unless we're talking about maybe a S&T deal involving a disgruntled FA like Odom or Lewis.
IMO, KT is the caliber of player that Corliss Williamson or Malik Rose is. Not as good as Corliss, but as good maybe better than Rose. With that being said, we wouldn't get too much in return for him. So, we might as well keep him in tow, as our backup PF. IMO, we'd be lucky to get a late #1 pick for him. On most good teams, KT would be a backup because of his physical limitations which prevent him from playing good low-post D, and being a consistent rebounder. Ideally, I'd like Mo to play well like 15 and 7 or something, while Griffin develops a low post game. Then for the 03-04 season, we trade Mo for something decent, insert Griffin as the starting PF, and keep KT as the backup. However, that might be looking to far in advance. If Mo and KT put up the exact same stats, Mo will still have a higher trade value than KT.
The key with Thomas isn't just his value as a player but his value as a commodity. He has a smallish salary and only one year left on his current contract. He is coming off a great year and has shown improvement each year he's been in the league. That combination makes him valuable because what he brings is flexibility both as a player and as a salary. In addition, I think most would agree that KT straight up might not bring a ton in return, however, KT combined with a draft pick could net something more significant.
I guess one question would be, is would someone go nuts, and offer KT 4+ mill/year when KT becomes a FA? I think that would be similar to us re-signing Moochie, or the Knicks signing Chris Childs back in 96.
If he had a longer contract at 1.2 mill, I would agree. Fact is, that when he is a FA, he will probably look to receive 5 mill or so a year. I don't know if any team would be willing to sign him for that much. Maybe the Nuggets?
My thoughts exactly Jeff. Its not that Thomas is a bad player, but just as someone said he's like Gary trent,Malik Rose, and Corliss. When given the chance, they are good point per minute/rebound men, but when they start the teams aren't nearly as good. Someone said it earlier that the ideal situation is to open time for Griffin.Even if Taylor starts, i can easily see Griffin playing 30 minutes per night next yr. I'm to the consensous that if we can give up that pick plus thomas to get Odom,Lewis or even Tim Thomas, I think we should do it. Adding another young player to this mix who is not ready for the nba doesn't bode well for this team. With the way Robinson's back is acting up, retirement might be a possibility. If thats the case and we wound up with the pick, I'll inquire SA about his availibilty.
I'm thinking the Magic might be willing to trade Hill for a bowl of jello if they could get the league to accept it. At least they could get some satisfaction out of the jello.
Either Hill is healthy, in which case he'd have pretty high trade value ( unlikely) or he's not, in which case we'd never trade for him....at least I hope not.....(wince....Rice...)
That doesn't matter. If you are a team that wants to be in position to sign free agents or make deals, Thomas would fit the bill. Having Thomas with a year left on his contract assuming the team doesn't want to pay him $4 or $5 million per year means... a. You let him go at the end of the year and free up a couple million in salary or b. You find a team that wants him and sign-and-trade him for a player you do want. Either way, the fact that his salary is fairly meager at this point is a valuable commodity to teams who want salary cap flexibility. Also, who's to say someone wouldn't give KT $4 million per season. A 6-year, $30million contract wouldn't be out of the question considering some of the other contracts given out.
I completely agree. Malik Rose is probably a very good comparison when it comes to KT. And, frankly, I think Griffin will see those kinds of minutes even if Taylor gets 32 minutes himself. There was a lot of talk about those guys sharing minutes on the floor with EG and Taylor switching to play some 5 at times. I still see that as an option that will likely be used.
First off, let me say I am a huge Kenny Thomas fan. He is my type of player. Limited by something he can't controll, size in this case, but all heart and desire. Compare this to Mo Taylor, who I would throw away with that contract if I could. Taylor can't seem to rasie his game to the level of his tools. My opinions only. That being said, Jag that is a very good post. It is right on the money. As a general rule, if the KTs of the world are starting, you proably have a pretty weak team. On the other hand, he is an asset to just about any bench. Regarding his skills, I think he is a bit of an all around player. Less than average outside shot, but decent for a pf. Better than average move to the bucket. Great defender for his size, but overall an average defender of power forwards. By the way, that is his position - get over it. I think he passes well and generally makes pretty good decisions, that is he does not hurt us by forcing the ball. My biggest problems are his turnovers - about right for a good point, horrible for a guy who does not handle the ball every time down, and free throws. Free throws are a real problem for me, as "my type of player" makes all of his free throws, because they are something you can practice, and it is something the opponent gives you. Regarding his trade status. I agree with the midget analogy. He is our most tradeable commodity, but that doesn't mean other teams will line up to help us out. Actually, I think Catino is our most tradeable asset - flashy numbers, instant help, low contract for a coupel of years. OK Francis and Griffin reallly, but you know what I mean. Comparing Kenny to Malik Rose of Corliss Williamson is kidding yourself. If you offered SA Kenny for Malik straight up, they would laugh so hard they would forget about the Lakers. I don't know anybody on either team, but Rose is an intregal part of that team. He is their energy guy. He is on the bench becasue he backs up Tim Duncan and David Robinson. Thomas is a starter becasue in front of him are injyury and rookie. When Rose replaced Robinson as a starter, they missed him so much as a sub, they started some one oelse, just so Rose could make his normal contribution. I don't know that much about Corliss, but agin I suspect no one for one trade would be considered. Off subject, but for a reality check - how much would you give up for Malik or Corliss plus a number 14-16 pick. I am guessing none of our core players. OK, how about Mobley for Corlis and the number 4? Again I am guessing most here will say no - emphatically. Just trying to get more realisim into the trade posts. Again I like Kenny. I think a team of 12 KTs would do well. Well not 12 clones, but his equivelent in heart and liabilities. Sort of like the Magic before they signed McGrady and Hill. Where is all of this going, I don't know. I like Kenny, I think JAG had an excellent psot taht was accurate and well though out.
