I think it's best to keep Artest off the bench as he fits terribly with McGrady. I also don't think Battier is completely worthless or anything to the degree of extreme sentiment from that side of the spectrum. He's one of the best team defenders in basketball, and very rarely makes any mistakes on either side of the ball. However, the praise in this thread is quite the exaggeration. His supporters need to admit that he's a severely flawed player - a poor rebounder, can't use his size offensively, incredibly unathletic, possibly the worst ball handling wing in the league, and very easy to close out on on the perimeter. Tangibly, he's a virtual zero offensively. Now the retort will no doubt be that he exhibits a cerebral quality on the court which makes the game run smoother for his teammates and I fully 100% agree with that assessment... HOWEVER. His inabilities are really exposed against the upper echelon teams and augmented by the presence of Alston (and in recent years Hayes) in the starting lineup. The Utah Jazz weren't making those same mental mistakes that the Bulls did last night, and instead capitalized on Battier's presence on the court by suffocating McGrady. He's averaged 10pts/gm in the playoffs in his Houston Rockets career with some sparkling shooting percentages, but again the problem is that the threat of his shooting is easily mitigated with a simple close-out. This year, he doesn't even have the shooting. No reasoned observer will criticize anything intrinsic to Battier - everyone loves glue guys. The criticism lies in his place on a historically offensively inept team, and his role/expectations.
exactly. battier should still start b/c he's a better fit with tracy and yao. he would be a greater fit if he is a better offensive player (ariza anybody) that can still hustle. can you freakin' imagine trevor ariza on our starting lineup?
Great post. Battier's offense was incredibly good last night. I know it sounds wierd to have a 3/2/2 game and have people rave about your offense, but Battier was a key to the ball motion and spacing last night. He made the extra pass, made the key picks, and played within the offense perfectly. One of the plays that didn't work out was when he had his man pinned on the block and instead of going up with it, made a quick touch pass to a wide-open Scola at 15 feet. Scola missed the shot, but it was beautiful offense. In the same situation, Artest would have either shot a fadeaway or backed his guy further in and tried to get a layup. It might have ended up working out better, but Battier made the best offensive play. Besides, this is a silly thread. Battier started, but he played 2 minutes fewer than Artest.
Ok, gonna do it for fun. Ron enters game at 3:50 to go in the 1st quarter last night.....gonna focus on team perimeter defense etc. The first time Ron is challenged on the perimeter is when Luol Deng gets the ball off a down screen and pops out for an easy 15 foot jumper at 1:13 in the first quarter, Ron gets caught going under the screen and his man gets a wide open look. At 37.1 seconds of the first Luol gets the loose ball, and instead of guarding him in front Ron reaches around behind him, missing the ball and allowing Deng to lob it to a wide open Tyrus Thomas for an easy slam. End first quarter...... 5:36 of the 2nd quarter, Artest is guarding Tyrus Thomas at the elbow. Thomas blows right by him misses the shot but Scola has to rotate over to challenge as well as Battier, and Gray gets the rebound for the easy put back. Next time down the court, Artest is guarding Deng, who gives him a shoulder fake back door cut and gets a nice feed from Gray for a wide open 18 footer, Artest is not quick enough to keep up. At 3:54 Artest is guarding Nocioni who goes around him as Artest reaches and misses again the defense rotates and Tyrus Thomas gets an easy tip in. At 2:11 Artest is blown by for a fastbreak layup by Rose......transition D....never mind the entire team sucks at transition D...Artest is just fitting in there. Artest out after that play at the 2:00 mark of the 2nd quarter. End of half. 3rd quarter Artest enters around the 2:59 mark......and for some reason the Bulls never challenge him on the perimeter......not once was there a case where Hinrich or Rose gave the ball to Deng....bad move on their part. DD
it's more artest's ankle that is hindering him with his lateral movement. he can move on on O b/c you're not reacting (if you play ball you know that). the same applies to tracy. once artest gets healthier (IF), he should be our best overall defender.
This is the same thing I saw last year too, it is not his ankle it is his lack of lateral quickness and propensity to gamble on the steal. DD
well he played for sacto last yr. he had little incentive to play defense (only v. the good players). but like i said, if healthy, ron is our best overall defender. he provides that physicality that is needed in the playoff to wear out opposing offensive players over a 7 game series. battier was no match for ak47 or harpring. artest's physicality alone would intimidate them.
Battier is in a shooting slump, there is no question about that. Anybody who knows Battier knows that this is nothing to worry about -- his shot will come around. In the mean time, what he does is make the decision that will ultimately lead to the best shot for the team. Battier's hook shot has been off lately, so he decided to go for a shot he had more confidence in. I don't have a problem with that. I didn't get a chance to watch the Philly game so I can't comment on the other situation you mentioned. What I do know is that the numbers I see tell me that the team scores points much more efficiently on the floor when Battier is playing than when he is not. Not true. Not true at all. Gordon guarded Battier like he would normally guard anyone, with the typical attempt to double team Yao when Yao got the ball while still showing respect for Battier's ability to hit the open shot. If your claim were true, Battier would have gotten plenty of open looks. He got very few, if any. Comparing Battier's offensive abilities to Chuck's screams of sheer intellectual dishonesty. If you were thinking long term, then you would realize that Battier is merely overcoming a protracted shooting slump brought about by his foot injury, and that there is no reason to expect that he won't return to form by playoff time. Or is it that you cannot at all remember that Battier normally hits big open shots for this team? Bill and Clyde aren't exactly genius analysts either, and they don't see what Battier and everyone else is doing on the court until Bull comes along and spells it out for them with his "Bull's eye" segments. As long as the Rockets are scoring 113 points per 100 possessions while he is on the court, he needs to be getting as many minutes as possible, and I don't care if he's entertaining you or not.
even after all these posts i can't believe fans don't understand Battier is shooting like FOUR SHOTS A GAME! I hope Barry doesn't get in the game and end up 01 for 1 because then these fans will swear he's lost his shot..... Quit complaining about Battier's offense, thye DONT need it. Not when you have tmac, ron, yao, scola, landry, brooks and wafer. Sure they'll need a shot from him here and there, but what battier realizes (and appararently some of you dont) is that there isn't a desperate need for that third or 4th qrtr like in the past. He also realizes he's starting off slow, its not really a shooting slump, it's lack of practice. I already mentioned this is like battier's first month of the season because he had to go back and sit out. His training camp was basically January. and once again, worry about the other guy who doesn't stop shooting even when he's in a shooting slump, THAT, is what's going to hurt this team in the long run, not 2 or 3 shots. And before anyone answers by saying a shot or two can decide a game, the team is too good to be winning games by a bucket or two. If they lose by 3 points, y'all will point to battier's 0 for 3 stat, but fail to realize their PG went 2 for 9. Last time i check 9 shots are more than 3. Perhaps below avg shooting by battier will technically cost Houston a game, but Rafer's constant poor shooting will have put the team in that situation to lose the game.
Most of you are using the same rationale to argue for Battier to start over Artest that was used to argue Hayes starting over Scola or Landry. There is more then one way to crack an egg. The Rockets can win with Battier starting. They were able to win with Hayes starting as well. There is just possibly a better way to do it. This idea that Ron and Tracy can't play together is plane wrong. At the beginning of the season Yao played bad. He hadn't played NBA basketball since going out midway through last season and he was rusty. As we know, Tracy was less then he is capable of being if healthy. During that first 15 games Battier was out recovering from surgery and Ron started with Tracy and Yao. The team started the season 10-5 without Shane (that is a winning percentage of 66% which would have them 3rd right now). I know, as hard as it is to believe they won games without Shane. They even held opponents to an average of 90.5 points in those 15 games, and that includes over-time with the Blazers and the 111 points the Lakers put up against them. Yao averaged 17 rusty, Tracy averaged 16 limping, and Ron averaged 15 learning his role in the offense. As for Brooks starting, you are over rating Rafer. His defense is inconsistent and when Tracy plays he usually is the one with the ball and controlling the tempo leaving Rafer floating out of place. Rafer takes bad shots and the shots available to him with the starting unit are 3s which he misses at a high rate. Many times when the offense becomes stagnant it is because teams try to force Shane and/ or Rafer to beat them and they double Tracy and Yao. Brooks has the ability to convert on the openings that the offense delivers where Rafer hasn't shown the ability to. Brooks was able to start in place of Rafer while Rafer was out and his defense wasn't an issue.
Really? Feeling that good about wins over Golden State and Chicago, are we? This team has weapons now, no doubt. But if Alston and Battier are on the court together in the 4th to close out playoff games, you can bet your ass they need it. The backscreens and 'taking Ben Gordon out of the way so T-Mac has room' is nice now, but I'm looking for someone that can hold the defense accountable in money time.
I've seen this said before. Has he said he got his name from Kwame Brown? Kwame is a pretty common name. That's like seeing someone with the moniker 'Steve' and saying 'roflmao, you named yourself after a scrub?' For one, artest is not 100% and he's dealing with injuries just like Shane (who technically should be fine now). Second, Artest has much more responsibility on offense than Shane, so he conserves his energy on D kind of like Kobe (i know, everyone says he's overrated on D as well). He has to pace himself but he is much more capable of shutting down a player for stretches of a game and that will come in handy in the playoffs. Shane's D is all based on intelligence. Ron is more athletic and strong. So yeah Shane is better possession to possession but he'd better be, that's his job. Ron can conserve energy until key possessions because we need him to have energy to drive on offense. With that said, I think shane should start. He fits better with Tracy. But, I honestly feel Shane is a luxury. He's like having a great navigation/stereo system in a car with a bad transmission. We need a starting PG and Shane is probably the most expendable trade piece we have.
wow... I lost some brain cells reading this thread. Thankfully there were some posts putting people in their place other wise I might be a babbling idiot for having finished the thread. Shane is still getting healthy and is in a slump. I don't know how many times in the past few games I have seen him get back on transition defense and single-handedly stop a fast break. That if for no other reason is valuable in the starting lineup.
As Shaud mentioned, if you automatically ignore my posts, why did you respond? Also, according to an NBA announcer Lebron said that about Artest as have other players like DWade. I don't hear any players saying that about Battier. You've completely discredited yourself by saying you'd rather have Battier on Kobe than Artest. Instead of looking at win #22 last year, go pull up Kobe's points in games against the Rockets since Battier has arrived and you'll see why you've discredited yourself. I will say that Battier is good team defender, but the Rockets were a good defensive team before he got here. One of the big problems with Battier is that he can't put it into another gear as we've seen (and we will see) Artest do in the playoffs. James Posey, another defensive specialist, has also shown the ability to turn it up in the playoffs defensively AND offensively. Shane gives 100%, but other than the fact that you're supposed to try hard, this is meaningless if you can't produce results - especially when it counts most. This is why Shane has struggled on both ends of the court in his post-season career. Currently, Battier's utter impotence on offense in general and his camping out at the corner 3 pt line in particular make guarding him one of the easiest jobs in the NBA. As far as Morey and company being "dumb" (your word not mine), please you or anybody else tell me which team would give the Rockets a lottery pick for Battier?
