I think in order to live a life that values others over self there needs to be something in you that recognizes some sense of sacredness and dignity to EVERY human life, without exception. I'm not saying we all get there the same way...But I think that belief is one of faith. There's lots of evidence to the contrary...and there are some valued secular and religous philosophers who would certainly tell you otherwise.
fair enough - but allow me to prod a bit.... What makes you assert the above declaration despite the alternative below? I think you are trying to constrain your comments on the basis of an "individual understanding". If that's the case - who's to say that my individual understanding, independent of a god entity, is less meritous or rational? And no, this is not me picking a fight - it's genuine confusion. First you proclaim faith a necessity, but then you backtrack to state that was only for your individual situation. Yet, at the same time, you specifically argue that it is not based on any sort of reward/fear. I'm left to conclude then, that it's based on an assumption that faith brought you to this mindset - in which case one has to ask why other people obviously don't need such faith to come to these observations, or why others can come to the same lifestyle with a different view of god and faith, or why faith seems to matter at all when many, many people espousing the same faith make absolutely no attempt to live as righteously as I think you try to do. Suppose, hypothetically, that you, madmax, suddenly became atheist - would this irrevocably alter how you react to your fellow man?
This is really the bottom-line question, and it's a tough one for me to answer personally. But I'm certain (because I have friends who fit this description) there are atheists who see human being as I see them. Maybe not entirely the same, but at least value them heavily. No question of that. And understand my faith is in a God that is hella bigger than these "secular/sacred" arguments. (as an aside,there are few things more dangerous in the American Church than the illusion of that division --- but that's a different discussion, i suppose). If you understand God to be who I understand Him to be, then you may believe, as I do, that the spark that in human beings to love without condition (for example) is God-given. Again, that's a faith statement on my part, and I'm not asking you or anyone else here to adopt it. The God of the Bible uses all sorts of interesting people, including those who don't believe in Him, throughout those texts. In my personal experience, I have found this shift...this change of desires...to come through my faith. It's come entirely through that, with Christ as my model. I'm CERTAINLY NOT THERE YET. And I don't expect I will ever get there, fully. But in my experience, that's where it has come from. And my aim here is not just the result of feeding the poor, etc...but in glorifying Him. In pointing to Him as my "why." And the more I get there and see of it, there more He becomes everything.
rhad- not speaking to your discussion with Mm. I have a comment on this statement. I am very close to 2 different people who both work in Africa helping and serving people. I think their motives for believing what they do define their faith. One's faith is motivated and defined by a belief in God's goodness and God's love. The other has a faith motivated by self interest of being a good neighbor. Chic Dambach link goes into Africa on peace initiatives where there is civil war, he worked in the Congo and put his life at risk. He cares deeply for the people and wants them to have peace, health and prosperity. Stephanie Hagemier (no website) works in the Congo, she runs an orphanage, a clinic and a grade school. She cares deeply for the people and wants them to have peace, health and prosperity. Chic's care for the Congolese is based on his belief that the world can acheive peace and harmony if men will compromise their differences and agree to peaceful solutions to their problems. Everything he does depends on a belief in the goodness of men. Chic believes the Congolese people are just as valuable as anyone else, but his motive for serving is self interest. He believes he is doing a good deed that betters the world. It makes him a better person for it. Stephanie's care for the Congolese is based on her belief that God loves them as much as anyone else in the world and she believes that God can make a difference in the people she helps. Everything she does depends on a belief in the goodness of God. Chic is an atheist and my brother in law. Stephanie is a Christian missionary. On the surface alot of what they believe and do looks the same to me. I know them both very well. But knowing them well I have an understanding why Stephanie has suffered so much and yet would rather die than leave the people she loves. Stephanie firmly believes she is there on God's behalf- she feels compelled to love these people for God's sake and as His representative. No one even knows about her unless they (like me) have had the great priviledge of meeting her. She doesn't advertise. She has suffered at the hands of rebel forces, she has lived in the Congo in poverty for over 25 years; she has legally adopted orphans; she has been sick unto death and miraculously healed. She has forsaken everything she had in America, her life is in constant danger do to the civil war but she has joy and happiness that would shame most people I know here that worry about things like stocks, elections and basketball teams. She would tell you her faith sustains and motivates her. She would tell you that God loves these people and wants them to know it. She would tell you she went there because Jesus did die for their forgiveness and that message is for every person on earth. Chic does go in to negotiate often under armed guard at times on dangerous assignments. He leaves th Congo after each mission feeling satisfied he helped returning to his nice home near DC. Though he has risked his life he has no plan to give it. He has faith in man, but thinks god is for the weak. He doesn't know Stephanie, she is not weak. Just some thoughts... probably doesn't clear up anything.
Thanks for the post. It's a very good one. Although, I really cannot help but think the above quote more than prudent. I sense you think Stephanie is risking more, doing more, than Chic because of her belief in god. I think that is nothing more than a tedious game of one-upsmanship. If you think both are motivated by care and respect for fellow humans - who are you to judge one more "pure" than the other? If I went to the Congo for a month on a humanitarian mission, would that make me better than madmax? One heck of a story though. And like madmax, I'm not there yet. Not even close. Color me awed by both of them. I hope the above did not sound inflammatory - because I seriously think both are worthy of admiration and imitation.
To me also, she will be at our church this summer (I am very excited she doesn't come to the US very often), I want you to come meet her she is precious. Tears come to my eyes thinking of her. Everyone else is invited also, I will post when I get the date confirmed. Later
I cannot measure who is risking more, there is no question who is giving more in my opinion but I cannot prove that it is God that is making that difference. I think there is a very distinct difference in their motivations. In other words there selfish motivations are characterized differently. One considers giving her selfish motivations to serve others for God a joy and a priviledge. He doesn't consider giving up his selfish motivations, he just weighs the risks to the rewards and acts on that basis alone. She is not trying to save her life at all. He does.
not inflammatory at all... just discussing I like Madmax's answers better than mine usually anyways... I chimed in probably because I just found out she might come to our church, she has never been. I know her parents well and met her and spent time with her, haven't seen her in over 10 years. I respect them both also, I don't see Chic much, he is married to my wife's sister, he will soon be serving in the new admin.
I would be hard-pressed to argue that Stephanie's sacrifice is not the ultimate show of love. A "oneness" if you will. I fail to see how Chic's story proves this to be only achievable by those who believe in god. You tread dangerously close to rating actions and correlating those actions to faith or lack thereof. If we choose to go down that path, you and max and I are all beyond selfish compared to chic, throwing the faith part of that assumption into disarray. If anything, Stephanie's story would imply to me that she is more personally committed to serving and loving others. Certainly, her belief in god is a motivator - but she chose to take that belief in the direction she did - just as others who believe chose not to. Else, if god chose for her, than you and max and I are blameless for our own "choices", since god chose them as well.
You are focused on the acheivement or actions, I am discussing the motivations. I admire Chic for what he does and I apologize for comparing them to Stephanie's life and diminishing his accomplishments. I think the point we are discussing is how faith (or faith in God) or lack of faith impact the lives people live. In other words does faith in God make you a better person? Can an atheist be a good person? Faith in God provides a different motivation is all I want to say. Faith in my definition is what you believe and it would include that you act or live as you believe; in fact I believe you always and without exception act out what you believe in my opinion. I do not separate belief from the choices a person makes. But motivation speaks to our selfishness. Jesus died on a cross but he wasn't a martyr. A martyr gives himself for what he believes is a good cause or justification. I don't think I was a good justification for Jesus suffering on the cross. In other words I didn't deserve what He did. Jesus was a sacrifice not a martyr. I am a sinful person and if there was perfect justice in the world I certainly would NOT receive a verdict of a sinless perfect person. I would be guilty of all kinds of fallen selfish choices that fall far short of the righteousness who is Jesus. But Jesus died as a sacrifice for me, or in my place (and for all people). It is one thing to give oneself for one's own satisfaction. It is another thing to give oneself for love itself- a principled action. Jesus loves everyone. It is unselfish, principled. For that love Stephanie is motivated. It motivates me also when I get glimpses of it. I think the Apostle Paul talked about the kind of love Jesus has for people when he said you could give your body as a martyr, give all your money to the poor but if you lack this love motivation; you haven't succeeded.
What do you think motivates chic? Does it motivate you also? Is one motivation better than the other? Why? All asked in curiousness - no snideness* intended. *I have no idea if snideness is a word - but let's roll with it
I tend to confuse myself at times... I just meant that there are people who are do things because they believe in God and people who do things without regard to believing in God that are the same things often. But believing in God brings in to question God, and how God acts towards people and that is where the motivation comes in. God's love is motivated by pure principled love. No self interest. I believe the only difference in how a Christian should live is location. Some Christians live in Africa, some live in Houston. Stephanie thinks she is living a normal Christian life. (she is ) I don't know Chic's heart, but since he doesn't do what he does out of love for God, I am going to assume he does it because he thinks he is a better person for it, or HE is making the world better. I would assume it is a selfish motivation to be the best he can be as he defines it. That doesn't motivate me. I am not interested in being a better person, I am motivated by Jesus love for me. I am motivated to please Jesus, so I try to understand His will, His character and His love. I feel very lost at times and tremedously inadequate so I am also highly motivated to have faith in His help. This is the big difference to me. I believe and am convinced that I need Jesus. I believe His love and spirit and grace are real and available. Pleasing Jesus, pleases me, because of the faith I have in His love for me. Pleasing Jesus isn't all there is to faith in God either. Some people believe pleasing Jesus means murdering infidels and heretics. Faith in Jesus simply put is believing in who He is, His character and responding appropriately. Acts that are not consistant with Jesus character are not acts of faith in God.
Well. Since you don't know what chic's motivation is. And since I certainly do not know what chic's motivation is either... I think judgement of motivational worthiness premature, at best. I do find it curious that you seem to imply that Stephanie is wholly devoid of any selfish motivation. I assume she must get some pleasure for herself from helping others or, at a minimum, a sense of peace in knowing that she is achieving what she believes to be god's will/ethics/work. If not, I'd proclaim her level of conciousness tantamount to divinity in it's own right.
Couldn't agree more, but I said I assumed as much and I also stated I didn't think his motivation was a love for Jesus... simply put you are right. I don't think anyone is devoid of selfish motivation and I am certain she isn't, I meant the opposite, I meant that when and if motivated by God's love those motivations are not selfish. I readily admit that if I believe Jesus loves me it motivates me to love in kind. Actually I would attribute her works more to grace or help from God not her motivations. I would think her motivations are different than Chic's. And I was trying to state that the love God has for us and inspires in us does not result in selfish motivations but love for love's sake alone. In other words, I love because it is right. Think of it this way- If your only interest in loving others is the peace and benefit it brings to you then you simply are motivated by the peace and any benefit you receive. We Christians struggle with faith. But it is our faith that pleases God for these very reasons.
