Meaning, the average American (read as NOT someone who is actively participating in political discussions on message boards) sees the statistics and numbers read off as just that, statistics and numbers.
If a wall is an act of war, then every household is fighting a war with each other. Heck, war even is occurring within every friggin' building where there are separate rooms. Not necessarily agreeing with Ottoman on his unabashed pro-Israel stance in Middle-East conflicts, but I just love it when you avoid the pointed question whether US-Mexico is at war on the wall topic. He didn't ask you about the Berlin Wall, by the way.
What, you mean when the British who were seceded it from the Ottoman Turks as part of the peace treaty from the aftermath of declaring war on the British? Or are you speaking of when the Turks took it from the Mamaluks in Egypt? Or when the Mamaluks took it from the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem? Or when the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem took it from the Caliphs? Or when the Caliphs took it from the Byzantine Empire? To pretend that there was some happy state of Palestine owned by Palestinian Arabs since time immemorial in a Jew free paradise, until the mean nasty British for no reason other than evil malice moved in and screwed everything up is an absurd example of historical revisionism. Mostly they started to fight when people like the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem discovered that their Nazi friends had lost the war, and Muslim SS divisions wouldn't finish up in Europe and come to Palestine to expand the Final Solution worldwide.
Please explain the relevance of this masturbatory show of obfuscation. My post was in response to your attempt at providing historical analysis while providing a convenient starting point to the conflict. I myself never claimed that the initial creation of the state of Israel was the starting point. Convenient strawman, but again, way off the mark from my stance on the issue. See above. For someone who has described himself as resigned to a stance of objective neutrality with regard to the discussion at hand, you sure do go out of your way to obfuscate the issue in a pro-Israeli manner.
In dealing with the conflict between the states of Israel and Palestine, the creation of both of those states is necessarily a starting point. Often, the discussion goes in the way I was assuming you were going - happiness in Palestinian Paradise until the Jew came along. If that isn't where you were going, I misunderstood and I'm sorry. That having been said if you weren't going there I'm not sure exactly where you were going. In that instance, I would appreciate it if you would clarify exactly what you were claiming, as opposed to providing a list of what you weren't claiming. As far as my stance, when I see something out of balance, I am compelled OCD-like to try and return it a state of balance. The more people push one way, the more I feel compelled to push back. With all the anti-Israel anti-Jew hate here, that necessarily results in a lopsided push; call it a mirror of the lopsided nature of the conversation without me. If I were posting on the Likud BBS, I would try and balance their lopsided perspective in the other direction and would undoubtedly be called a terrorist-loving apologist or some such by your opposite number over there.
I agree the Israelis have a right to defend themselves but at the sametime an occupied people have the right to their freedom too. As logical as it would to expect that people under threat will retaliate its just as logical to expect that people under occupation will fight and will support groups who fight by every means necessary. That said Hamas isn't an existential threat to Israel. I won't make light of the rockets but the response is in no ways proportional. Israel could've worked to strengthen the moderate Palestinian factions and build up Gaza's economy rather than do all it could to destroy. I don't think its an accident that the only period of relative calm in the Palestinian territories in the last 30 years was when following Oslo the Palestinian economy was growing. The problem is that Israel's strategy of collective punishment only guarentees the persistence of the radicals and their supporters. Its the paradox of fighting an insurgency. The harder you go after the militarily the more support they have.
To a certain extent you are right but this is what makes the peace process so difficult that it can be held hostage by extremists. This applies to both sides since my understanding of Israeli politics is that many Israelis don't support the settlements but the coalition nature of Israeli politics means that radical elements that do hold a lot of sway. Any serious peace process including a return to 1967 borders will still have to deal with extremists, likely including Jewish ones considering that Rabin was assassinated by a Jew, but what has to happen is to not allow them to derail that process.
And how widespread was this in the Palestinian territories? Its interesting to note that Iraqis didn't celebrate 9/11 and the leadership of Iran called for blood donations and prayers yet that still didn't stop us from invading one country and remaining in a state of cold war with another. To say that we are fine seeing the Palestinians get pummeled at the hands of the Israeli because some of them were cheering for 9/11 just sounds petty.
No offense Otto but I think you desire for pushback to get balance is a bit out of hand. Especially regarding your response to essentially tying Arab nationalism and opposition to a Jewish state to Facism. While there were political reasons regarding getting out from under the British that some Arabs might've been allied, or at least more partial to the Axis, I don't think that necessarily translates to a historical anti-semitism among Arabs on par with the Nazis. Consider for that historically predating the creation of Israel Jews have been treated better in Muslim countries than they have in Christian Europe and Jews were treated better by the Muslim forces than they were the Christian forces in the Crusades. While Islamic radicals in recent decades have turned this into a religious war that wasn't always the case. In fact the PLO is an avowed secular organization.
It's not petty... It's the simple fact that there are multiple entities within the Palestinian and arab world who consistently call for "Death to America" and "Death to Israel." You expect sympathy from the average American? I'm definitely not for and do not celebrate the deaths of innocent civilians caught in the crossfire, but I have a hard time believing that we have any right to tell Israel it can't provide it's own citizens the security it needs to survive. If Hamas is firing these missiles from the dead center of refugee camps, then they are responsible for the deaths and injuries around them. With all that being said, more needs to be done to get medical attention to these civilians. All this sympathy towards Hamas is the result of years of anti-Israel propaganda. Do we need to remind people that these are the same cowards that blew up pizza parlors. How about all the children's programs promoting the death of Israel and martyrdom? How about the "funeral" where the body was dropped and got up and ran away? The solution to this is simple: 1. After Hamas gets its butt kicked, it must agree that firing missiles into Israel will be considered an act of war (which it really is now since it is the governing party). 2. Hamas must recognize Israel's right to exist. Once these 2 steps are met and the Israelis no longer feel threatened, then you will see the improvement in the quality of life for Palestinians. Note: I'm definitely more moderate than my post may seem. I prefer to play the devil's advocate to the majority arab opinion on the board.
As with all situations, broad generalizations are broad and over general. In the broadest sense, you are correct. But variation within the groups is wider than variation between the groups. The way the Piast Kings of Poland treated Jews, for instance, was very different than in Castile, Leon, and Aragon several hundred years later during the Inquisition. By the same token, the relatively enlightened way that medieval Caliphates treated Jews isn't necessarily indicative of how they were treated by Ottoman delegates in Palestine in the 19th and 20th centuries. [rquoter] "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours'. -Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, from his own autobiography [/rquoter]
Israel is going about this the wrong way instead of bombing Gaza with f-16's they should be firing homemade rockets like Hamas into the Gaza strip, then no one can complain about proportionality.
Different year, different headlines, different posters... same crap in the D&D. One side argues its points, the other side responds, no one changes their views... life goes on, no solutions achieved.
Quoted for truth. I have been one of Israel's biggest supporters on this board for many years now. It has been nice seeing differing viewpoints as it has made me change my own thoughts and opinions on the region. Although I have disagreed with posters on here, there are some which I have grown to respect. The war with Hezbollah changed me in that Israel should be more selective when going into battle. Here we see a governing party, with a long history of terror acts, firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. Israel pulled out of Gaza and it was just a matter of time before there was bloodshed just to kill some jews. I have a hard time having sympathy for the Palestinians when they elected Hamas. Hamas has commited an act of war by firing the rockets and now are crying like babies to the UN when they get slapped back. On the flip side, I took a lot of crap from some of my extreme pro-Israeli friends just voting for Obama. I'm an American Jew first, not a Zionist. I have experienced anti-semitism here and have also seen the hatred against muslims. Over the past 100 years we've seen more tolerance for women, blacks and gays around the world (except a specific few who remain in the stone age). It's about time that Jews and Muslims started being more tolerant of each other. Sadly, I don't see it happening in my lifetime... but I will teach my kids not to hate. If we could all agree that Israel has a right to exist securely and the Palestinians have a right to a state and lives with dignity, then we could finally start to see some changes. Instead, all we see is crap threads entitled "Israel's insanity" accusing one side of injustice while completely ignoring the fact that Hamas has commited an act of war.
That is the problem though there are multiple entities in the Palestinian and Arab world so does that mean all fo them deserve collective punishment? To the extent that you are choosing to make an argument based on some rhetorical actions of what is likely a small group of Palestinians, and have some other postes have noted is a questionable claim to begin with, is very petty. As for the average American as another poster noted the opinion poll shows that the average American opinion is divided. True, Israel is a soveriegn country but at the same time we don't have to approve of their actions, diplomatically support them, or fund them either. Agree it is wrong for Hamas to base themselves in civillian areas and they certainly deserve blame. That said it is also wrong for the Israelis to engage to destroy the Gazan economy and infrastructure and as you note blockade medical relief. I think you and Ottomaton are getting too caught up in being contrarian. While yes there is anti-Israeli propaganda but at the same time you have to consider if things like building settlements, destroying the Palestinians economy, and undermining even the moderate Palestinian leadership isn't contributing to the ongoing problems. For me personally I think Israel has a right to exist and that Hamas is a threat to peace and also that the Palestinians themselves should be doing much more for peace but that said I don't think Israel should be given a pass for their actions too.
But at the sametime it is also problematic to inductively reason that based on the statements or actions of a few are indicative of the actions of a larger group especially a group that is as diverse as the Arabs or even of the Palestinians themselves.
IMO this is troubling when Obama's stated views regarding Israel really isn't much different from GW Bush's or John McCain's. At the sametime I'm not surprised. In college I dated someone who was the daughter of a Holocaust survivor and while she was for the most time generally thoughtful and sane about Israel she was apesh^t crazy. One time she told me she wanted to join the Mossad and wanted to carry out a mission against the US because the US wasn't actually a friend of Israel.
Did you think you were going to find a solution to decades of animosity between people Palestinians and Israelis on Clutchfans? I guess it never occurred to me we'd find it here...or that anyone came here looking for it.
Rocketsjudoka... thanks for the well-balanced and considerate response. I strongly dislike the term "collective punishment." If you are talking about the security checkpoints and security wall as this collective punishment, then what do you propose Israel do to stop suicide bombers? It has proven to be highly effective. Arafat stole billions of dollars and had palaces in France. Hamas is stockpiling missiles. Couldn't this money have been used to build infrastructure and business? I highly doubt that the minority of Palestinians are anti-America... they did elect Hamas. We absolutely don't. However, I don't think a president or congressmen/women can be elected with this mindset towards Israel. If Israel used military aggression to landgrab though, I would even support pulling funding. This is not the case though as they are under attack by those who do not recognize their right to exist. Once the Palestinians choose to spend money on business and infrastructure instead of on bombs, rockets and propaganda then you will see change. The lack of medical relief is a result of Hamas and Hezbollah using ambulances as tools of war. They should have known that their actions would cause a humanitarian disaster. Israel stated that they will no longer show restraint when being attacked. Let this be a lesson to Hamas and other terror groups in the future. Yes, Israel did build settlements. They also pulled back and dismantled numerous of them. There has to be some sort of middle ground instead of the "dismantle every settlement and give us back every inch of land from pre-1967 or you will never see peace and we will bomb you." I honestly don't know if we've seen a true moderate in Palestinian leadership yet. They should not be given a pass and they should be watched closely. However, they need to be given the chance to cripple Hamas' ability to fire rockets into Israeli towns. The only way to do this is an all-out war with a complete victory. It's a lose-lose situation for Israel though. While they might stop the rockets for a few years, the propagandists will use the deaths of women and children to further strengthen the anti-Israeli sentiment in the arab world. If we could get rid of jewish women... there would be no war
