So are you saying when yao went down it was up to Deke and Chuck Hayes to 4 pick up their offense to replace the 22 points Yao was scoring? No, Deke had to play his role and be more effective at it. Same with Hayes. It didnt suddenly mean they needed to average 10 points a game each. The scorers have to do that and Battier is not a scorer. That is not how he helps this team most. An injured Tmac means Artest has to score more first and foremost. Then maybe Alston, Scola, Brooks and Landry before Battier. Not because Battier gets a free pass, but because he isnt in there to score, whereas the others mentioned probably contribute more to the game by scoring then defense.
Ha, in some cases yeah. Though I dont really think the people who talk about adding the athletic player (the "stripper") or talk about adding veteran help are necessarily the same exact people changing their minds but whatever on that... Though I do agree with some of the points brought up in the thread. If Battier's inability to score more points when the main scorers are out is a perceived problem, then naturally you'll want someone who'll do that. Example: If 5 people need 100 points to win. The 25 pts player is out (100-25=75), and you replace him with a 5 pts player (75+5=80) that means the team needs to make up 20 points to get 100 (4 points a piece each player). If one of the players keeps doing the same scoring he's always been doing when he could STAND to shoot more already, that gets annoying. I hate that too But life sucks like that. Sometimes the unathletic hard working stiff gets the million$ and the recognition and the Teflon, and athletic phenom talent has to go to China or sit at home
When one of your big guns go down, its up to everyone to pickup the slack. Last yr when yao went down, he was 22-10. Those 22 pts and 10 rebs has to be picked up by everyone. So what happened is Deke picked up the 4 pts 5 rebs and 2 blks. Scola picked up 2 pts and 2 rebs. Landry picked up 3pts and 2 rebs. Catch my drift? If the guys who are not known as offensive juggarnauts can pick it up some, why shane can't? Just like when the spurs lost parker and and manu, finley, th rookie hill, mason jr, matt bonner all picked the slack up. The same should happen in the playoffs when they were blitzing Tracy at the 3pt line and rafer was out, shane passed the responsibility of being aggressive on to 3 rookies and a jorneyman . Durvasa- Predraft I was pitching for Brewer and guys like DD was pushing Reddick. I thought brewer was everything the rox needed from the wing spot and being jvg was a defensive minded coach, he was the best defensive player in the draft. Shooting, with good work ethic can be worked on, but the other things he brought to the table I really liked. When Gay fel to them, I thought they shouldve draft the best player which was gay, then sign a vet swingman as backup. Getting back to shane. I've read a million times about how tracy doesn't work on his game in the summer. I've read about the poor work ethic when it comes to this and once again no one has answered my question. What has shane improved on since coming to the rox? What is he doing in the summer? So just because you're not a offensive player does that mean he shouldn't work to be a more efficient offensive player? I mean if he was kobe bryant or mj offensively, I would say never mind. If the rockets were loaded with talented offensive players I would say don't worry. The rockets are a offensively challenged basketball club. They have been for awhile now and especially in the playoffs. Top that off, its nt like they have played a top defense in the playoffs. The jazz play hard, but they're not a good defensive team. Like I said, its not like he has to chase around a premier wing either. When Rafer alston is considered a better offensive player than you, that's saying something.
Shroopy- Its really not about atheletic players although I do think there are plays that a guy can make because he's atheletic. Many on this board and in this thread assume if you're atheletic, you're dumb with a low bbiq and if you're smart then you're unatheletic and heady. Many think there isn't a middle ground, its all or nothing. I can look at a team like the Jazz. They're one of the smartest,hard playing teams in the league. What they also have is guys who are atheletic for their positions. There isn't a guy in theyre starting 5 that's a subpar athelete or unatheletic. Then when you get ak-47, harpring and even the 2 7 ft youngsters along with brevin the consummate pg. They improved their athelticism from the stocton-malone era. I'm not jocking them, but they didn't give away players or shy away from raw atheletes because of a system or style. What they did was train and coach those atheletes in the system and has been to the conf finals and the 2nd rd. Top that off, who is their oldest rotational player? How old is their oldest starter? I have a dislike for the jazz, not only because of the past playoff battles, but I respect them because they rebuilt that team with 1 lotto pick and made key signings and came back bigger,stronger and faster.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=ArICYnzYfkQ.N.tqgMiJV.6QvLYF?gid=2008123022 Solid perfomance by Outlaw against a very good team in the Celtics.
its been mentioned already, but ill repeat it again. you can't put any blame on role players. for the most part, all of them do their jobs. its the stars that arent playing like stars. imagine if we had battier, artest, landry, and barry along with the 2004 T-Mac. as far as im concerned, we wouldnt even need Yao.
Possibly... but even when McGrady or Yao goes down, I don't see why Battier doing what he does is problematic. His strength is to take open Js, which he does very well. There are others on the team-- like Scola, Brooks and, frankly, Alston, who are better at making something happen in the post or off the dribble. Of course, there is now Artest, Team is better off giving the ball to these guys having Battier space the floor than using Battier in his normal floor spacing role... somebody still has to space the floor when TMac or Yao is out, no?
You may not remember, but I was squarely in the Ronnie Brewer camp as well. I still like him a lot. And I was mixed then on Shane, and I still am. Gay has proven to be an adept scorer and superb athlete on a bad team. But I've seen so many so-called scorers and super athletes pass through here without much success. And I know that historically young players don't do a whole lot on playoff bound teams. So, I'm still skeptical of how much more he could have helped us than Battier has. But long term, it's hard to deny that he would have been the better choice. The "windows" is starting to close on this team, and I think history will probably we say we chose incorrectly in hindsight. History can say that about a lot of teams, every year.
Is it too much to ask Shane to be able to dribble a basketball effectively? That's an intangible, right? Is it too much to ask him to give you something more consistent on the offensive end besides the corner 3? Is it too much to ask a professional athlete to be somewhat athletic?
I think the support has gotten better, but I think they have been the reason for playoff failures. The stars have done pretty good in the playoffs, but when u have a playoff game when only 4 people score, that's supporting cast. If Maxwell doesn't have 35 in a decisive game, the rox don't win. If the rookie cassell doesn't come up big in a clincher, the rox don't win. If Elie doesn't have the nuts to take the corner 3, the rox are champs. Its the role player that have been lacking. Elie was here to bring toughness, hit the 3, and defend, b if guys ran at elie out of control, he would put the ball down and attack the rim. In the nba or anything, if you're not getting better and working to get better, then you're getting worse. Shane hasn't worked on his game since college and it shows. Durvasa - I do remember you wanting Brewer also. The needs of the rockets were tall atheletic wing and they couldve had him. I watch a lot of Jazz games on league pass and he may not ever be a all star, but he will be a 15 ppg guy that will play d, can actually run the offense as we saw last week and can make some plays only atheletes can make. I don't think the rox knew they were getting a guy that could only score 10 pts game and has been terrible in the playoffs. If they knew that an they traded the #8, they need their ass whipped.
Again, you act like Shane only scoring 10 points a game means he contributes nothing else. He has struggled this year, but even you should admit during his time here he has been a superb team defender. He has allowed Tmac the luxury of not guarding the other teams best perimeter player and helped space the floor with his three point shooting. Say what you want about Brewer. He may be athletic and try hard on the defensive end, but he is not the defender Battier is. Battier finished second in defensive player of the year last year. I dont remember hearing Brewer's name in that discussion. Also, dont give me the "but he can learn to be a great defender" cuz that is BS. More importantly, Brewer is not a 15 ppg scorer. He is at 12.6 this year and averaging 3.3 rebounds. For his career he is at 9.6 PPG, 2.4 rebounds, and 21 % from the three point line. Not saying he cant improve, but dont act like picking him instead of trading for Battier would have done this team some great service.
Battier has to mask McGrady's lack of defense. Now he needs to make up for McGrady's lack of health & lessened scoring. Why not just get a McGrady-lite and be done with it- whats better than having another McGrady in case 1st McGrady isnt hitting? I didnt think Shane Battier could be such a polarizing player...Depends if you think he's conservative on offense to a fault, or you think he is what he is and always has been. All I can say is a 28+ year old 30+ minutes 5+ seasons player, for the most part you should know what you're getting. Thats the definition of established player and should know if he's about filled his initial lotto pick potential. I myself actually value athleticism, length & aggressive minded scoring ability without other parts of the game being sacrificed. Maybe I'm into this thread cuz it questions what I think makes an acceptable player. I figured I'd be the most bitter vociferous guy how Rudy Gay's beasting it up over Battier's weak game, but I've also seen how Battier can be important to the team in his own way. Cuz I dont believe that the defensive continuity would totally be there without Battier like people say....but again whatever improves the team.
Any Jazz role player not named Deron Williams needs an asterisk beside them as to why they are successful and play well. And that asterisk is the system and a coach who has been implementing that system for 20 years. They find players who fit that system and make them conform to that system. Anyone that can't conform to the system they get rid of. Ronnie Brewer is no different. Take him off that Jazz team and he'd be another no name wing player (see: Shandon Anderson).
Outlaw hits game winner against Pistons to end their 7 game winning streak: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap;_ylt=ArPs_gsbAxus.ZusMPlDAey8vLYF?gid=2009010722 How many game winners is that for Outlaw in his career with limited/inconsistent playing time? 3 or 4?
great post! what u say is absolutely true Jerry Sloan commands respect in that team.. do what he says .. else you are out.. thats the rule in Utah..
Once again, he's given the Gotti treatment for his play. He is now officially the 4th worse offensive player on the rox just in front of hayes,dorsey, and deke. He is the reason Kobe has so much energy in the 4th vs houston. He is the reason Kobe crowds Yao on the blks because kobe doesn't even recognize he's on the court. For those of you keeping track at home, go check Kobe's number vs david wesley and now vs shane "the kobe stopper" battier.
I posted this in the "Time for Yao to step up..." thread: Battier never was and never will be Bruce Bowen. He's not even as good as Ariza. He is way too slow and his lateral movement is terrible, even when he's at full strength. If you are not lockdown like Bowen was in his prime, you better have some offensive game to legitimize your PT. The fact is that Battier is no better than Bowen as an offensive player. He is tremendously overrated around here. It's all about the intangibles according to his supporters, how he quarterbacks the defense, the 1 charge he takes every other game. Or they cite one or two games where he played very good defense and use that as the basis of their argument for his greatness. Battier just isn't quick enough to guard most SGs, unlike Bowen. He never was. Artest should be starting plain and simple when he gets healthy again and we should look to trade Battier for frontcourt length or to fill PG needs. If McGrady somehow returns to form when he comes back, this should be our new starting lineup: Brooks McGrady Artest Scola Yao with Alston, Wafer, Barry and Landry coming off the bench. Deke and Hayes get minutes as needed. Head, Battier and Alston are trade bait to either acquire a better PG or to address frontcourt needs. I'm not sold on Brooks being starter material, but I AM SOLD ON RAFER NOT BEING STARTER MATERIAL. You aren't risking anything by promoting Brooks to the starting role. Rafer just isn't good enough for that to be the case. The value of making this PG change sooner than later is that you find out a little bit more about what Brooks can do. If he steps up, you let him run with the starting job for the rest of the season. If he struggles, you can always go back to Rafer. The bottom line is that you learn more about Brooks and where he fits in for next season as well as what you need to do to address PG needs over the summer. We know Alston's ceiling. He was a bad NBA PG at his peak and he's now approaching the end of his career. He won't get better and what he is now just isn't good enough to justify not letting the young gun have a go at it. If Rafer can swallow his pride, he could be a good mentor for Brooks like Cassell was for Rondo during the playoffs last season. He is a coach in the offseason so he should draw from that experience to help Brooks' development.
His one basket tonight came on a broken play that left him wide open in the corner. He's useless from any other spot on the floor on offense.
Pretty hard to defend Shane right now though I'm sure there's some +/- derivation out there that can make some sense of this situation.
