[Dime] Who’s Better: Manu Ginobili or Tracy McGrady?

no no no......nothing is on him this year....it should be on yao because we all know where the finals are won, in the post unless you're MJ or king James....i agree, health is the key....if everyone is healthy, then this cannot be one person's fault....

 

I think you're overstating the importance of increase in PER from regular season to playoffs. Pop rests his stars more in the regular season. That means, naturally, that there's be less overlap between Ginobili's minutes and the other stars' minutes in the regular season. So, he puts up better numbers. In the playoffs, Duncan and Parker are playing close to 40 a night. Ginobili is playing 32-33 a night. More overlap, and therefore more deferring.

The playoffs also become a more half-court oriented, and most post-up oriented. Tim Duncan is one of the great post up players in the league history. Obviously, the Spurs will rely on him more in the playoffs and Ginobili less. Take a look at Kobe's playoff PER when Shaq was on the Lakers. It tended to drop from regular season to postseason as well. Same reason.

By my count, its gone up 3 times, and down 3 times. Last 3 years, it's gone down. I don't see this as a huge black mark against him.

 

I don't understand your point. If T-Mac playoff numbers went down last season, I wouldn't be criticizing him for it. I know he was hurting. And I haven't been knocking him for his numbers going up either. I'm saying that, ultimately, putting up some impressive numbers in a 7-game series when we were short-handed otherwise (so he was forced to be more aggressive) does not trump what happened over the preceding 82-game schedule.

When I look at their seasons overall last year, I don't think T-Mac was unquestionably better than Ginobili. He had some great moments -- the 22-game win streak was a real highlight. But Mcgrady was very inconsistent last year with his individual play, he really struggled in my opinion in the first couple months and last couple months of the regular season. That's more relevant to me than a playoff series we ultimately lost.

 

My point is, I didn't (don't) understand how you're using that in defense of Ginobili, where it could actually be used in defense of T-Mac in a T-Mac/Ginobili argument.

The bold part is truth, but there's nothing that can be done to change it. T-Mac does what he must to stay healthy enough to show up and play in the playoffs, even if that means taking a few regular season games off (because he is just not an 82gamer).

The fact is, T-Mac steps up because he has no choice. I'm sure if players have it rolling (hopefully like this season) he will give them the ball all day long. He's playing to win, not to keep his 3rd highest PPG playoff average.

Again, Ginobili will never be the number 1 option for his team, so we can never see how he would respond to that much pressure/responsibility.

Until this season, T-Mac hasn't had nearly the same amount of support in the supporting cast, so if they show up in the playoffs, we have yet to see what T-Mac and co. are capable of.

Ginobili is a champion and there's no arguing that, but I think you gotta go with T-Mac when it comes to individual talent.

 

durvasa,

So you agree. PER doesn't mean jack ****, then. Quit using it to say one thing in the regular season, then turn around and say when Gino's PER is waaaay less than TMac's in the playoffs that it means something else.

TMac is a top playoff PER guy...one of the best ever. and his PER last year was completely stellar, and Gino's sucked. But when it doesn't make your argument, you downplay it.

you are being a hypocrite using PER when it makes your argument and downplaying it when it doesn't.

 

Yes it does. It's supposed to trump any regular season achievements. We all know Tracy plays his hardest in the playoffs. He conserves his energy in the regular season... this has been well documented. T-Mac goes all out in the playoffs, and the statistics suggest the same thing. His explosive numbers weren't just a result of Yao going down. Anyone can see that his intensity in playoff games are greater than his regular season intensity. Comparing his regular season stats to playoff stats is apples and oranges. Ginobili has no evidence that he can carry a team to the playoffs, while Tracy has plenty of evidence that he can.

But you would trade T-Mac for Rudy Fernandez anyway correct?

 

To an extent, you're right. But we can look at certain things to get a glimpse of how Ginobili might respond in that situation. It's better than just assuming that Ginobili could never carry a team (which is what most in thread have done). For example, we can look at what Ginobili has done in those instances over the course of a season when he's not sharing the court with Tim Duncan. Last year, his scoring rate increased dramatically. If his scoring rate went down or stayed basically the same, I'd think that's a sign that Ginobili maybe wouldn't be able to take advantage if he was the main guy on the team. But, no, his scoring rate increases. So, what can we infer from that? Nothing definitive, admittedly, but I think it's a clue that he might have what it takes to lead a team.

That's how I approach it. I'm not going to just assume he's can't handle it. If there's evidence to suggest that he steps up when his team relies on him to carry the offense, I think we have to take that under consideration.

Ginobili is pretty talented. He's got the best step back jumper in the game. I think he's a better finisher. He's got better instincts on defense. He's much better at changing directions with the ball, and splitting double teams.

T-Mac has his own strengths as well. But Ginobili is really, really good, and totally underrated on this board.

 

I can't believe that this is still an argument. There should be no debate. T-Mac was and is better than Ginobli. No doubt about that. End of discussion.

 

The problem is, you can't just use a small sample size to base a judgement on. Things change, if you are a superstar and THE focal point of your team other teams will start to orient their defense to stop you, etc.

And I agree Ginobili is completely underrated on this board. He's an amazing player. But the fact is most of the time he's compared to T-Mac on this board, which might be the causation of his underrating in the first place.

Why not compare him to Luther Head? He will look like a prime-Jordan playing a YMCA pickup game.

 

I think you must have set some kind of record in this thread for calling other posters hypocrites.

I am not being a hypocrite, because I have not once stated that Ginobili is obviously the better player because his PER is X while's T-Mac's is Y. You, on the other hand, seem to be passing increase in playoff PER as "proof" that McGrady is a better player.

Someone stated earlier that Tracy's stats are unquestionably better than Ginobili's. I never said the converse (Ginobili's stats are unquestionably better), which would make me a hypocrite. I said that it's debatable who has the better stats. And I stand by that.

You and tmac-1 are saying that Tracy is obviously the better player, and all I'm saying is these are two really good players and there's room for legitimate debate on who's "better".

 

It's well known that TMac was playing hurt during the postseason as well, and he was missing Yao. Who had surgery after the playoffs: TMac or Gino?

Yes, I was looking at another stat wrt to Ilgauskus...but fact remains, he is dusting Yao this year on PER, what does that mean? nothing.

Fact is: TMac is the 6th best PER player in playoff history, and his PER last year was right there close to that at his 6th best average. If you are going to use PER to make a case for Gino, you have to look at his playoffs vs TMac. The last 3 years Gino sucks in the Playoffs vs regular season...the same years people have been making the argument that he's awesome due to PER.

 

any you hold the record for saying people are making "hypothetical" arguments. you started it, not me. admit it.

 

That's a good point. But teams are well aware of how good Ginobili is. He's a game changer, and teams will scheme to handle him. So, for example, you had Rick Adelman last year move Battier from the starting lineup to the bench just to focus on him. The information that's available isn't conclusive in either direction. But if Ginobili had to play on a team where he was the main guy, and he was playing 35+ minutes a night, and I think based on what I've seen he'd put up "star" numbers. Probably not the same, on a per-minute basis, but maybe something like 22 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in 35 minutes. And he'd give you the competitiveness and toughness we come to expect from him. But those are just numbers. Does he have what it takes to be the number-1 guy on a playoff team? I think he has the right physical and mental makeup for that, yes.

 

I don't think he's underrated here. Could it be that you're overrating him and underrating T-Mac? Ginobili is a great player, but he's not better than McGrady. T-Mac has a bigger tool box (skills), but a smaller garage (team).

 

Ok, I'll admit it. But everything I called hypothetical was, in fact, hypothetical. What matters is winning. Ginobili has won. T-Mac hasn't. Ok, what about the individual stats? I'm not big on looking only at per-game box score stats. Based on that, it's T-Mac all the way. Other metrics suggests otherwise. So, I'll say that's debatable. Ok, what about if they are healthy and/or playing with similar teammates? That's ultimately what the pro-T-Mac argument in the article rested on.

So the argument for Ginobili is he's won, and T-Mac hasn't. The argument for T-Mac is if he's was healthy, or if the roles were reversed, then he'd be much more successful. I'll say it again, "hypothetical"!

And let me stress, again, that I haven't once said that Ginobili is the better player because of "X, Y, Z". I'm defending Ginobili's record when it comes to the individual stats, but I'm not attempting to make the argument that Ginobili is better because of his stats. There's a difference.

 

since manu has returned the most minutes manu played was 41 minutes. that coincides with hsi worst game. 18 pts on 7-21 shooting, 2-9 3s. so you simply cannot extrapolate. that's unreasonable.

i think if manu had to play an entire season + playoffs of 35+ minutes, he would be not as good. and esp. if he had to be the main guy. but it's not even about that. HE'S NEVER DONE IT. so we can't just say, let's say if he did this in this many minutes...

look at jason terry this year. he's putting up 21 points on 46% shooting off the bench. in his first 5 games when he started, he SUCKED. off the bench, he's great.

same case with ben gordon.

manu has a role on the spurs and he does it very well. he's really good. he's a player any team would love to have.

but not as their main guy.

 

so tony parker is a better player than chris paul last year b/c his team beat paul's team? tony parker is better than steve nash, deron, john stockton b/c he's won rings and those guys haven't?

you can only use the "winning" argument if both guys are in similar situations in terms of team's talent.

let's bring up wade as a perfect example. is wade any worse of a player b/c his team sucks right now? he's playing at a HIGHER level this year than he ever had in 05-06 when he won his championship. points, assists, rebounds, 3pt, ft%, and fg% before this 3 game slide are all career-highs.

is KG a better player these past 2 years than he ever was in minnesota? or does he just have 2 other all-stars on his team?

i mean if yao was healthy last year (a hypothetical for ya), i think this discussion about tracy's lack of playoff success would be stopped for once. i just hope he advances far this year so people can stop bringing this up.

 

Oh my God... we are comparing Tracy McGrady vs Manu Ginobilli. What we're not comparing is the Houston Rockets vs San Antonio Spurs. Winning is about TEAM. You can't use team stats and achievements to determine player rankings. Kenny Smith is not better than John Stockton even though Smith won more with his team.

 

and zero rings and hasnt got past the first round.....

 

not this year...rockets have a much deeper team....go check out the experts, ginobili is a top 5 shooting guard and a great fantasy player, better than tmac the past 3 years