[Dime] Who’s Better: Manu Ginobili or Tracy McGrady?

manu was never the leader or best player on the spurs.

and if you bring up his international accomplishments, pau gasol also has a gold medal. vspan has won at the international level too (2nd place).

 

Wait... what?

Hold on, other than this season, you think T-Mac has more talent on his team than Manu Ginobili? What about last season, where Yao was injured and everyone disappeared? And what about the three seasons before that, where Yao was recovering from injury vs. the Jazz (Luther Head shot 7%!!!!) and the season vs. the Mavs? I mean, Clarence Weatherspoon, Ryan Bowen, David Wesley, Lonny Baxter, etc.!? They all SUCK! Give me Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley, etc.

I'm not being biased. There are parts of McGrady's game and resume that can be knocked (obviously) but there are certain things that have be taken conditionally.

Being funnest to watch doesn't mean you are good. Dwight is a lot "funner" to watch, but I don't think he's a lot better than Yao, do you?

 

come on man, he basically carried them against the pistons in the finals....again, lets try not to be too biased...

by the way, tmac last night was perfect....a perfect compliment to artest and yao as a 2nd or 3rd option a la manu....i had to throw that in there

 

first of all timmy is the leader....second he has won on ALL levels....who else has done that? euro,olympics,nba

 

now you're not being objective here.

manu carries the spurs? ask ANY fan who is the best player of the spurs in the past decade, 100% of them would say tim duncan. he's their best player on both ends of the court.

tracy as a 2nd/3rd option last night? now i know you're biased in your assessment. tracy basically was the creator of most plays last night. he was the ultimate playmaker. scoring wise, he was the 2nd option. but in terms of decision making, he was our guy. manu NEVER has the entire playmaking responsibilities being put on him.

 

yao and dwight.....well it's a wash....yao cant touch dwight on defense and at the same time, dwight is not as dominant as yao....well maybe he does dominate but his post moves are no where near yao's.....

 

even the tracy we have now, i bet you if we ask GMs, tracy would win the majority.

and i repeat: ask yourself this question, if a team has BOTH tracy and manu, who would you give more responsibilities to?

 

It's not a moot point. You can't just assume 2 injuries are equal. Anyhow, all I know is Manu's ankle severely hampered his play in the postseason. It's the same ankle that kept him out through the first month of the season.

 

OK nevermind that. But please answer the first part of the question.

Really? You would take T-Mac's supporting cast over the past few seasons (or his entire career post Toronto) over Manu Ginobili's?

Other than this season (and that's still a tough call), I would take Timmy and co. 100% of the time.

 

yes from a scoring stand point, 2nd option....i just fear the next game he start hoisting jumpers....last night was a thing of beauty....we get that tmac on night basis then you can start planning the parade now....and by the way, manu did carry the team in the finals in 2005....if you care, pull up game seven and you'll be reminded....

 

durvasa,

see this quote...

that was his only up year. all others were down.

durvasa, do you not see how that is hypocritical, durvasa? TMac had surgery after that playoffs and produced a 24.4 PER, last year. He wasn't injured with nagging injuries that he played through? Ginobody has constant nagging injuries, too, but gets excused for them when his PER goes down. TMac's PER went up on worse injuries to himself and to the team...ie, Yao being out. TMac has a 24.4 vs Gino's 17.1 last year.

Gino's PER has gone down every playoff except one.

look dude, I'm being nice to you by saying you are overrating Ginobody because he is a foreigner and he embarrassing NBA basketball which many people want embarrassed... And that is essetially what you stated, by saying "some people hear can't stand a South American being spoken in the same breath as Kobe and Wade."

I'm not going to be nice anymore. You are a complete bball moron if you think Ginobody is in the same breath as Kobe. Don't talk to me anymore. You've showed your stupidity.

 

That doesn't matter. He injured his ankle in the Olympics didn't he? It doesn't matter if it's the same ankle. The playoffs were before the olympics. His playoff ankle injury was a tough injury, i'm not saying it didn't hamper his game, but T-Mac played through two injuries that required surgery.

 

It's well known that Ginobili was playing hurt in the postseason. And you can't assume that the difference between between regular season and playoffs is due purely to difference in minutes played. There are so many factors you're ignoring there. The playoffs are more matchup-dependent. It's a smaller sample, so random variation plays a larger role in the differences. Injuries, not just for Ginobili but also for teammates or opponents, become a bigger factor. It's overly simplistic to say "Ginobili played more minutes in the playoffs last year, and his PER dropped. Therefore he's not as good when he plays more minutes." And insisting that's proof is just laughable.

That is not true for most stars. Numbers tend to drop in the playoffs. Some stars who play on teams without a potent 2nd and 3rd offensive options will increase their productivity (though not necessarily the efficiency). But in general, there's a drop. And for obvious reasons -- you're playing against tougher competition, hence the level of defense raises and the offensive numbers go down. It was well known that Ginobili was playing injured in the postseason last year. In the two prior years, his PER goes from 23 to 21. That's not a significant regular season to playoff drop, after adjusting for the increased competition.

Do you know you're wrong? Yao's career PER: 23.1. Ilgauskus: 19.5.

Big Z has played terrific to start the year, arguably better than Yao on offense. And PER, as a mostly offensive stats, reflects that. Guess what? The Rockets, led by Yao, are 18th in the league in offensive efficiency. We're one of the worst offensive rebounding teams in the league. The Cavs are one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league, and they're far and away the best offensive team to start this year after being a middling offensive team in past years. Maybe, just maybe, Z has had a better start. That doesn't change that before this season, Yao has generally been the much better player. And that's what PER shows.

 

That's false. Before this year, Big Z has never had a higher PER than Yao.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mingya01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html

 

now that we look at it, yes you're right. besides this year, our team has been inept, although on paper we were supposed to be quite talented. i blame management for that but this year, Tmac has NO excuses!

warning: it's an odd year so the spurs might win it all

Spurs: 1999 champs, 2003 champs, 2005 champs, 2007 champs

 

so manu was their best player that year? eh carried them the ENTIRE REG. SEASON AND PLAYOFFS?

oh, just one game? daniel gibson scored 30 in an elimination game too

 

What are you even arguing here and how can that be used in Ginobili's defense but not McGrady's?

Ginobili's PER is allowed to go down but McGrady's isn't? Ginobili's PER goes down, fine, valid argument. T-Mac's actually goes up or stays around the same, doesn't it? How is that in any way, shape, or form a knock on him? Is it because he hasn't been able to play with talent like Ginobili does that he has to keep his numbers high for this team to even breathe at a chance of winning?

 

i respect your 20,000 posts but now i see they were probably insecure and ignorant.....so go on and hate, manu but make you look like doo doo on the court....just go watch youtube.....or you know what, i really want to hear you say that manu is a baller....if you're a true fan and hooper, you will....if you're just a scrub who's out of shape, you'll continue to hate....

 

Fair enough UNLESS players fail to show up. I mean i'm sure he'll get the blame for it, but is it really McGrady's fault if someone is injured, or if they decide not to show up and play to their potential?

I can guarantee you that if T-Mac HAS to average 30 these playoffs, we're probably losing in the first round because that means everything is on him and the team is being useless.

 

are you comparing a useless loss to a game that gets you the ring.....the cavs were down 3-0 and they werent going to let the NEXT greatest player of all time beat them aka king james......manu couldve easily won the finals mvp that year....