[Dime] Who’s Better: Manu Ginobili or Tracy McGrady?

dude, you call TMac "hypothetical" when you make a hypothetical per 40 minute argument for Ginobody. That's so hypocritical.

Did you read my post on the previous page. The fact show that Ginobody is less effective with more minutes. It is entirely "hypothetical" to say otherwise.

Ginobody's PER goes down in the playoffs when he gets 3-5 more mpg. McGrady's PER goes up or remains at a very high level. He's 6th all-time in Playoff PER, afterall. Last year, Ginobody went from a 24 PER man in the regular season to a 17.1 in the playoffs. TMac went from an 18 PER man in the regular season (his worst to date) to a 24.4 in the playoffs, without Yao.

 

correction, since we're on a new page now, I mean two pages ago.

 

mcgrady would be hurt so it doesnt matter...you people need to stop downplaying manu's greatness....he did carry his euro and olympic team....he was the first option in the finals...and he probably has as many game winners, if not more, than tmac....he has to be one of the most crafty players in the game....if you care, go look up manu on youtube, you will be impressed, some will be surprised....

 

you are sooooooo right! some of these people just cant stand hearing a south american being mentioned in the same breath as kobe and wade....ginobili would be a better 2nd or 3rd option for us....for those of you saying tmac is a better first option, NEW FLASH: YAO is the first option here and TMac should be the 2nd or 3rd option just like manu.

 

What prime TMac did better than Kobe? Kobe proved he can go deep in playoff with some help, Tmac hasn't.

People keep talking about how TMac single-handed carried the team into playoff last year, bull****, if Yao's out all year long, We're in lottery last year.

 

I do not consider comparing per minute stats as hypothetical. That I use "40 minutes" is beside the point. Would you prefer I compare their per-1 minute stats? The point stands -- Ginobili, on a per minute basis, is arguably as effective, perhaps more so, than T-Mac.

You think that per-game is a more natural comparison for their stats. I like to separate it into "minutes played" and "effectiveness on the court" (per-minute), and compare the per-minute effectiveness and minutes played independently.

EXCEPT you have no evidence to back that up. I've shown last year, and you dismissed it predictably, that Ginobili's per-minute numbers increased in games where he played more minutes.

I can't dispute that McGrady has put up some impressive numbers in the playoffs. He's also, for various reasons, played on under-skilled, under-manned teams in the postseason throughout his career. That can inflate his productivity. The last couple years, his raw numbers have been outstanding, but the efficiency has stunk. And, most importantly, he's yet to play brilliantly in a close-out game. I'm not one to heap criticism on him for his failures; I tend to defend him quite a bit on this issue. But the fact remains -- he hasn't "proven" himself to be a winning player in the postseason.

 

so, let me get this straight. You are mentioning Ginobody in the same breath as Kobe and Wade? Well, you're right...a lot of us can't stand listening to this anti-NBA bullsh!t. There are a lot of people who use Ginobody to bash the black stars of the NBA. I know that. People have told that to me to my face. You apparently are yet another one.

what?

 

wow, very thorough....you can write my next paper....all i know is manu has a better resume and he's a true professional while winning at every level....no need to argue with the blind

 

oh gosh, he we go again using the black card....geez, the greatest player of all time is black, our GREAT president elect is black....this is not about color. obviously it's about color to you and that's the problem. seeing a non-black play so well can be a problem to some. go checkout youtube and get back to me homie. by the way, i know black people who feel the same way so you're argument is horrrrrible.

 

Yeah Yao was real helpful in the playoffs last season.

 

Ginobili played through injury in last year's playoffs. However, in 2005, the year the Spurs won their 3rd championship, Manu's minutes went up as did his PER.

 

durvasa,

You are completely ignoring the stats I showed.

What do you mean I don't have proof that Ginobody's PER goes down on more minutes? Look at his playoff numbers when he gets 3-5 more mpg game.

Ginobody's PER goes down noticeable in the playoffs on more minutes. Most stars like TMac maintain or increase their PERs in the playoff...on more minutes.

Everyone knows you can't compare per minute stats on people with >8mpg difference. Do you know Ilgauskus is better than Yao Ming on PER and always has been? what does that mean?

 

excuse my horrible errors, i was infuriated

corrected:

 

he has said it many times. before manu was a permanent guy off teh bench, he had a stint as a starter. and pop said he wasn't as productive and the team wasn't as good with him starting. so that's why he went to the bench.

nobody underappreciates manu. everyone knows just how good he is. and i agree, manu does have a higher level of intensity than tracy (i don't know about competitiveness though b/c i'm sure tracy wants to win just as bad).

manu is a very good player. i would gladly take him on my team anytime, but not if i don't have any other stars to go with him.

 

T-Mac played with injuries in the playoffs last year as well. So it's a moot point.

Look, I don't think there is any downplaying Ginobili's talents, he's very talented. But he also gets to play with the greatest PF to ever play the game and a top 5 PG. You have to factor that in. T-Mac doesn't get to play with that talent, so he makes up for with individual stats, which doesn't get a TEAM anywhere.

If Yao plays to his potential, and the role players step up, T-Mac won't have to play any better or worse for this team to not only get out of the first round, but maybe even get to the conference finals or finals.

 

exactly, look at artest's first game off the bench and how he played with more freedom.

playing off the bench v. starting requires 2 different mentality. it's "easier" to come off the bench. see jason terry poppin' off this year.

 

winning requires a team effort.

 

i think tmac has more talent around him....JVG mentioned today that outside Lebron, Manu has to be one of the funnest players to watch...you guys are avid posters, i have much respect for your basketball knowledge but try to be less biased.

 

let's answer it like this: if a team has both tracy and manu, who do you think will have more responsibilities?

that should answer this question pretty easily.

many has never been a team's best player, 1st option (or even a clear-cut 2nd option with parker).

 

which comes with a great leader...