No, I have a personality problem with boors not a "stereotype" problem. When one has sufficient evidence over a long period of time (since the draft) of repeated self-centered, egotistical actions from a person, it is logical to conclude that the person has a particular pattern of behavior that will continue. That is not called "stereotyping" it is called evidence. You may have noted that I have made many references to the fact that Francis should change his actions for the good of the team. I have actually been quite impressed with how smart he seems and I feel he definitely has the potential to gain some wisdom -- which is not at all the same thing as being "smart". Seeing potential in people is not "stereotyping", either -- it's called "encouragement". You also blithely ignore my frequent "encouragement" for the Rockets to return to their former glory and I would like nothing better to be able to cheer for Steve Francis on my second favourite NBA team in the future. I really think the guy's ego is in danger of snubbing a wonderful talent, that's all. The guy could have easily come into Vancouver and made a few conciliatory remarks about the team or the city and I would have been the first one to cheer him (I actually did this when he made some great plays last night). Pud, if you can't get with that type of honesty, I guess this discussion has truly ended. Is your board now a better place? The poster above (sorry, I've got to get to the bank and I'm in a rush so I don't remember his name) talked about this acceptance of boorish, in-your-face behavior as being part of the way we have to accept major sports today. I find this totally distressing. Guys like Ty Cobb, Pete Rose (just ask poor Pete's son) and Steve Francis (if he continues) just don't get it. Sticking your jaw out and screaming like a maniac at your opponents or their fans is totally irrelevant to what you just did on the floor. My Pop always taught me it's harder to be a good winner than a good loser. It took me until my thirties to realize what he meant. I greatly enjoy our back and forth on this board but comments like the above one, I have no time for. Who's the winner when you lose a worthy opponent, oh, all-knowing and wise Pud-One? ------------------
I've posted before that Francis would be thought of as a punk by a lot on this board if he played anywhere else but Houston, also that what he did to Vancouver was no different than what Pippen did to Houston. GYHAS is right on in this respect. Francis is one of the many examples (see my feelings on wanting to keep Pippen) of why I look at athletes as just that, athletes, and don't hold them to a high standard off the court. I may root for the 'good citizens' of the league, but I try not to let the 'bad' ones bother me, except in some rare cases. ------------------
I never said to accept the self-aggrandizing behavior, just said it is commonplace among many great and not-so-great players (GYHS-I think you were commenting about my post). It is here to stay though. TheFreak, I pretty much agree with your take. After all, Francis does play here and not in Vancouver and that influences the debate most profoundly. I would NOT say Francis's actions = Quitten's though, the former wasn't a 30+ year old ex all-star who exploited his teammates and coaches to force actions he wanted. Francis was also goaded by the crowd the last couple of games in Vancouver, I think the actions cut both ways there. Still except for maybe the Chuckster, few professional athletes qualify as the great thinkers and humanists that I would have my kids look up to . GYHS, you can leave if you want, that is your choice. I would prefer you pop in here now and then for commentary, as usually a good debate ensues. Granted it entails a very thick skin to come in here being another team’s fan. I would say comments toward you are pretty mild in derogation relative to many other fans of other teams who have come in here. I think a large part of it is you are not purposely coming in to ruffle feathers. Some unmentioned Rocket fans, who are fans of other unmentioned Rocket enemy players, have dealt with a lot of crap here. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited April 05, 2000).]
Quite possibly one of the best posts you've ever posted. I still have to agree with TheFreak when he says if Steve had been anywhere else, we'd be punking him right now as nothing more than a brat. No one here can deny that. It's one of the reasons I doubt I'll ever pay to go to a professional sporting event; I'm not paying to watch pro athletes with the attitudes of children play. Yes, they are playing and we pay to watch them do it. Anyway... off my soapbox... for now. Give Your Head a Shake I don't disagree with what you say in the respect that Francis comes off as a brat. I can even see why you dislike him. I love his play and the excitement he brings, but there are times when I wish he'd think rationally instead of going for highlights. I hope he improves in this respect since he's only a rookie. While I don't condone what he said to the crowd, if what you said is true, and people threw batteries and vegetables at me in a previous game, then this game would be a bit more emotional. Again, that doesn't mean what he did, if he did it, was right. Another immature player who came to the league and showed other players and even refs disrespect : Hakeem Olajuwon. I just hope Steve can turn out to be even half as good an NBA citizen as Hakeem. I think he has the talent, but is lacking in maturity on the court. ------------------ <this space for rent>
Give Your Head a Shake, Your opinions are usually pretty well-thoughtout. I think I usually disagree with you, but hey. You at least present them in a coherent, non-condescending, and non-patronizing manner. That's a great attitude for debate and I hope you come back. It's great to have opinions from other teams, specifically ones where those teams' fans aren't here just to incite reaction but invite discussion. ------------------ <this space for rent>
GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE, Before the game, I encouraged your arrival. Go look at some posts of the last week. I looked for to jawing with you. I liked your last appearance. But, you take it too seriously. good grief When you went off on class, I'm going to challenge that. I've played playground in the corn fields of Illinois, for 3 years in the Army, and summer pick-up with the Rice Owls players, all combining for with a gorious plethora of personalities. I loved them all. Cockiness was a joy for me to play against. It was fun. My objections to your comments stem not from being a BBall fan, be being someone who woke up at 9 on Sat to find a Houston playground that I've never played at, so I could be assaulted by personalities I don't normally get to jaw with. You strike me as someone who doesn't enjoy jawing with wide-ranging personalities or even tolerating them. There is nothing funner for me than to play with a crowd I've never met. It is called socializing and accepting divesity. Learn to accept what you view as egotistical and classless personalities on the court. Because I've found they aren't what you expect. Welcome back anytime. But, don't expect me to listen to comments about class. I never could stomach comments about Barkley. And that's not going to change anytime soon.
One other thing to remember about Francis and his personality is that all the men he sweats with every day love him and recongnize him as the Franchise. Marbury alienated Garnett for godsakes. Don't compare that personality to Francis. Head Shake You stereotype without even knowing it. Bball is a culture. Be a little more open minded. And by the way, why not answer the more eloquent posters regarding your class comments that taking the easy route and pud-ding me.
puh-leeze. Francis is not a 2-guard. Yes he can score, but he can pass too. If Larry Brown hadnt moved Iverson to the 2, I bet all of you wouldnt even be talking about changing Francis's position. While we are at it, why dont we get Shandon to move to the point too? He would be a tall pg that everyone likes now cuz of Phil, and he has such a wonderful all around game. SA at the 1, Francis at the 2. Yeah. He ttries to take over one game against the team that he despises and fails, and now you guys whine about it and say he should be moved to the 2. He has learned a lot since the beggining of the season. Those palming calls have gone way down. ONE game. This was just one game. Get over it. And if Bibby is such a great pg, how come the Grizz havent done ANYTHING yet in the NBA except being doormats year after year? Francis is still learning. But he IS the Rockets savior rite now. ------------------ Wiz 3:16 says Walt is da man!!!
heypartner yeah, couldn't of said it better myself! keep bringing the RUCKUS! BTW, I am the Vice Pres of the Steve Francis BandWagoner CLUB! RAWW ------------------
I getting damn tired of every time Francis has a game in which he turns the ball over all of you "Francis Detractors" use this as an excuse to call for Steve to play at the 2. HE IS AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE THE ROCKETS GUARD and all of your belly aching and complaints aren't going to change that. Why? 1. You are not the coach 2. Francis does not want to play at the 2 spot 3. Rudy sees (unlike you Francis haters) his potential at the point. The turnovers will come down, as we saw briefly earlier in the season. Get off the kids back and get over it. Sincerely Treasurer of the "Steve Francis Bandwaggoners Club". ------------------
I greatly appreciate the invitation to stay involved from time to time on this board from Dr. D., Sir Scar and even old Hey-Ho-Nonnie-No. But I really think this topic of Francis and class has run its course -- a truly surprising amount of you guys get my point from an outsider's point of view and some of you never will. But some of the above quotes from HP sauce deserve some ripostes: 1) Cockiness and the egotistical behavior I was referring to are two very different things. Cockiness is the confidence to know that you are always going to do your best and the other guy can't really throw you off your game. Egotistical behavior serves no purpose but to inflate oneself. I'm real cocky about my firkin' opinions on basketball, life or a movie I've just watched but I often move it a few degrees half an hour later when someone makes a good argument opposed to mine (I'm not very good at instantly recognizing I'm wrong and I never expect anyone else in the heat of battle to do anything much different than defend their first line of defense). The egotistical person never evaluates their own performance, ever, -- it's always right and when it's wrong it's someone else's fault or they just weren't playing hard. 2) Gee, Pardo, doesn't it also strike you as a wee bit odd that a guy that wades into your BBS from a "hated" enemy camp and "jaws" with all these "wide-ranging" personalities might be doing it because he does actually enjoy it? Sorry, if I am not at all tolerant of boors or people who use unstructured arguments to make a point they had already decided on before they launch into their posts. As for taking it too seriously, I either make up nicknames or I just don't respond to people who don't make sense to me and you are fast moving into the latter category -- the majestic waving cornfields of Idaho or Iowa or Indiana or whatever are no more moving to me than the towering forest canopies of British Columbia should be to you. 3) I think I'm playing with a crowd that I've never met here and, so long as we're talking basketball and not trying to run some half-lame psycho-games on each other, I find it to be as "funner" as the next guy. 4) So who ever mentioned Barkley? You must have me mixed up with someone else. I've taught my ten year old son to only refer to him as Prince Charles. We were laughing our heads off at the game in Vancouver when he shot a foul shot with his eyes covered and when he gave away his shoes to the crowd we felt like we'd got our money's worth. When Charles does his cocky routine, he does it with a sense of the essential absurdity of life. The guy is a national treasure and should be on Mount Rushmore because he exhibits class, cockiness and he doesn't take himself all that seriously except when he does his thing. I love coming to this board because I think it is the best basketball opinion pick-up game on the Net by far. If you guys don't mind, I'll throw you the occassional alley-oop from Vancouver -- sometimes we can even be on the same side of some issues.... for instance, I love the ISO Rudy runs for Mobley, believe me, our guys looked like panicked sheep everytime they saw it -- I'd love to see Hollins do it for Dickerson, Lopez or even Bibby (who actually has shown that wicked sneaky-fast crossover a lot more lately). Well,it's 10:15 Vancouver time and I've gotta walk the old dog before bed -- nighto, y'all! ------------------
The smartest thing I've heard all day is to put Shandon at the point. It might have been a joke , but I think the Crisco has got a good idea here He can run while dribbling better than anyone on the team, he knows the floor like the pro that he is, and he passes great. Plus he's taller than the average point. Why didn't I think of that? ------------------
Uh-oh. I may have created a monster here. ------------------ CriscoKidd ... the unofficial mascot for the S.F.B.W.C.
I SHAKE MY HEAD in awe of you. great response. you're the man...cheers Just let me tell you about Illinois small town with 8 class AA (top tier) state championship sometime, and what it is like to grow up in a town where the city council votes for the coach. I think you will enjoy it. As corny as it may sound, bball is a metaphor of life for some. That includes many in Illinois and certainly me. I enjoyed the fact you showed me something about yourself in your last response. It is rare to get that in a bbs. So, we threw jabs at each other for awhile. ...a little playground with your son next...eh? I've been practicing my Malone elbow lately. just kidding peace biscuit [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 06, 2000).]
Not to mention that Shandon is a great defender and is extremely unselfish with the ball. He may become the best point guard that the NBA has seen yet. Magic Who? ------------- ROCKS "Key-Grip" of the S.F.B.W.C. and Vice-President of the Shandon Anderson for Point Guard Club. ------------------
God, I'm gonna cry. Somebody close this post so it can stay this beautiful for all time. ------------------
I agree with you Nolen. Just got finished reading this post and it was great! I am glad to see that Give Your Head a Shake and Heypartner have kissed and made up! Great way to end a classic debate (I mean post)! I really liked the statement that GYHAS said in his last reply, "I love coming to this board because I think it is the best basketball opinion pick-up game on the Net by far." Well said! I could not agree with you more! ------------------ "There is Francis backpedaling at full speed to guard Seattle All-Star Gary Payton on a fast break and then leaping as if off a springboard to make a spectacular fingertip block on what appeared to be a sure layup."
I got it, we move Francis to the 2 so Mobley can play the 1. I am sure all the guys that think Francis shouldn't be there would be fine with Cuttino running the show More seriously though, I think having Francis and Mobes with Francis being the primary 1, but both handling the ball plenty is a great way to go in the future. As much as people say Iverson isn't the 1 because Snow is, who is the guy doing the most dribbling and passing after crossing mid-court. He is also the guy who guards most of the other 1's leaving the twos to Snow. Likewise with the Bulls, about the only role their point guards had was to spot up and be ready for MJ's pass. I really don't have a problem with a hybrid role of our 1's or 2's. In fact, I would be fine going small with Francis (6'3"), Mobley (6'4") and SA (6'6") if we could throw big rebounding, post defending and shot-blocking C's and PF's both in there with them. This is pretty much the Knick formula, with three smaller players (6'2",6'5",6'6"), and they played some wicked defense last year and generated enough O from the guards. They just need another guy to go with Camby, too bad for them (no love loss here) Ewing is about 5 years too old now. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited April 06, 2000).]
