Billups? wasn't GP guarding him? Lets not fabricate stats here...Kobe had 22 assists to 18 turnovers.
Answer this is there a significant dropoff in production between the No. 1 option of those respective players (Kobe and Duncan) and their no. 2 player
The bolded part is BS. Yes Shaq had one helluva series offensively but you can't say they would've won with all those stats Shaq put up without Kobe's contributions offensively and defensively. Also Shaq averaged 4.8 apg and Kobe was 5.8...its not as close as you think. Lemme use your logic then...if you're gonna downplay what Kobe did then I guess we have to downplay what Mr. Duncan did in the 1999 finals since there was no Patrick Ewing...you don't think a top 50 player would've made a difference? In regards to Duncan not having a "subpar" finals who was the MVP in the 2007 finals? Duncans' stats in the 07 finals...18.3 points, 11.5 rebounds on 44% shooting and 66% from free throw line Parker...24.5 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists on 53% shooting and 57% from the 3 point line
The funny thing about this argument is Wade destroyed that same defense with a lesser Shaq, and Lebron did it with no Shaq. Same theme last year, Boston had counters in the team defense as the series went on that they simply didn't have for Lebron. Lebron took a lesser crew to within a single play of knocking out the Celts, while in the game that most matter Kobe and Lakers imploded and were utterly clueless (lost by what 40). Kobe is one of the best players in the league, but there are better when it comes to being that Beast in the playoffs that opponents can't answer. Same kind of argument with say KG or DR versus Duncan. Duncan at his peak elevated in the playoffs and became increasingly relentless and hard, if not impossible, to counter in the half court. Kobe's finals appearances in the last 5 years has def. shown there are ways to counter him to the detriment of his production and the direction/confidence of his team.
The main reason for that IMO is Wade and LeBron constantly attack the basket, while Kobe is primarily a jumpshooter. Don't get me wrong...he makes his jumper most of the time....but he doesn't attack the basket like those two do.
1) Wade couldn't get past them in the 2005 series. It did take a handful of extra role players (Posey, Walker, Williams, Payton[who accepted his lesser role with pride unlike in LA]) the next year to open things up and defeat Detroit. 2) There was no Ben Wallace in 2007 in Detroit for Lebron to face. Props to him for getting past the Pistons but you can't deny that they were cocky, arrogant, complacent and were unfocused. 3) Perhaps you should check out some of those "counters" Boston used and got away with right here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQaVvf2VOsc And don't even get me started on Lebron's crew and Kobe's crew...we all know Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Devean George don't belong in the NBA. I'm not gonna argue more about this kobe crew vs lebron crew because i don't want to derail the topic. lets just keep this to Duncan vs Kobe
I agree. They are athletically more explosive and more relentless in getting to the rim with or without contact. When the going got tough, Jordan didn't settle for jumpers for his bread and butter either. Not that Kobe isn't good in this respect and maybe closer to their level in this respect in the early part of the decade, but not anymore. (and I won't touch the personality and team leadership qualities where Kobe is clearly at the bottom of this group) You do realize the year before Miami takes them if Wade doesn't get injured, and even with his injury and playing at maybe 80%, they got to within a play or two in game 7 of winning. In Lebron's case the 1st time he played the Pistons (with Ben Wallace) he carried his team to within a play in game 6 of knocking them out, the next time he broke their spirit, just as Wade did. Besides, when the Pistons beta the Lakers in the playoffs, Wallace had a negligible impact on Kobe. BW was left on Shaq one on one, and getting destroyed, with Prince or Hamilton was drawing Kobe and making his life difficult. The same strategy failed miserably against the Heat with a much lesser version of Shaq because Wade proved impossible. Teams have forever bent the rules a bit. Nobody had it worse than Hakeem vs the Sonics. But truth be told only Rocket fans remember that aspect. Further, those "counters" Boston had were futile versus Lebron, who got within a play of knocking them out and played better as the series went on, something Kobe didn't come close to. You have to adjust to how the opponent is playing and how the game is officiated, same in every team sport. Yeah right, that 03-04 squad, Shaq, Malone, Payton, Fisher, Fox, George, etc--they had no 2nd stars or role players? (Wait, I thought two of those guys in even more dinosaur forms were in the main rotation of Wade's title team? And hasn't Fisher been a pretty good role player the last couple of years?) And last years squad, Gasol, Odom, Fisher, Sasha, VR, Farmar, Turiaff, Ariza--if I am not mistaken they were the deepest team in the whole playoffs. You seriously think Lebron has played with those caliber players? Lebron took rag tag groups to a basket from beating the Celts and the in their prime Pistons, where as those opponents totally took Kobe and his team off his game. BTW Duncan was able to beat BW and those Pistons as well. There relating it back to the thread. Some people are great regular season players, some people are even greater players when all the marbles are down. The latter is why Duncan is a greater player than Kobe. (and why Lebron and Wade certainly have the potential too--in Lebron's case I think it is all but assured he will end his career ahead of Kobe in the rankings of the greatest)
What defense? Has anyone noticed that players have legendary series playing against Kobe? Look at what Bibby did to Kobe in the 2002 WCF. You have never heard from Bibby again and he has always been overrated after that point. Iverson in 2001 dropped an average of 36 ppg in the finals on Kobe in that series including 48 on him in game 1. Or what happened when Billups straight up outplayed Kobe in the 2004 finals and took home Finals MVP. Or then on a busted knee how Paul Pierce outplayed Kobe last year.
I agree. They are athletically more explosive and more relentle....this group) - Lets just agree to disagree here. I'm a Laker fan and you're not. You don't watch Kobe as much as I do. We'll be running around in circles here. You do realize the year before Miami takes them if Wade doesn't get injured, and even with his injury and playing at maybe 80%, they got to within a play or two in game 7 of winning. - Well if you're gonna pull the injury excuse, I guess Kobe and co. would've won a 4th straight championship, beating Duncan and the Spurs in the Semis instead of losing to them. They did eliminate them in 01 and 02 playoffs ya know. Kobe had knee issues all year long and played through the pain. Why do you think he went to Colorado that summer? lol. To get his knee fixed up. The Lakers were 2-2 heading into game 5 at San Antonio...in game 5, Robert Horry missed a wide open three pointer (it rimmed in and out) from a double team that Kobe drew. Horry went 2 for 38 from 3 point land in the playoffs that year. Video right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6V1-UraQAs In that game 5 at SA, Kobe took over the 4th and led a comeback where they were down 20. So you talk about being close....thats how close they came to eliminating the Spurs a third straight year and face the Mavs in the WCF. In Lebron's case the 1st time he played the Pistons (with Ben Wallace) he carried his team to within a play in game 6 of knocking them out, the next time he broke their spirit, just as Wade did. Besides, when the Pistons beta the Lakers in the playoffs, Wallace had a negligible impact on Kobe. BW was left on Shaq one on one, and getting destroyed, with Prince or Hamilton was drawing Kobe and making his life difficult. The same strategy failed miserably against the Heat with a much lesser version of Shaq because Wade proved impossible. Again within a play. The Lakers were 6 seconds away from eliminating the the mighty Suns in 2006 playoffs. Thanks to Kwame Clown that didn't happen, since he didn't box out and flew over Tim Thomas who hit a 3 Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pylV_2mT7BE Wallace had a negligible effect? He's the center, he holds the fort down for the Pistons defense and did you know he won the defensive player of the year award in 04? Ben didn't guard Shaq most of the time (he did in the 4th however). Rasheed, Elden Campbell, Okur and effin Corliss Williamson did...Ben came from the weakside to provide the defense, which he excelled at. - No Prince and Rip didn't destroy Kobe. - Lesser version of Shaq? So I guess we should also consider that BW was also aging the year after and wasn't the defensive player he was the year before to provide suffocating defense down the middle. Teams have forever bent the rules a bit. Nobody had it worse than Hakeem vs the Sonics. But truth be told only Rocket fans remember that aspect. Further, those "counters" Boston had were futile versus Lebron, who got within a play of knocking them out and played better as the series went on, something Kobe didn't come close to. You have to adjust to how the opponent is playing and how the game is officiated, same in every team sport. - You're right and they should play through it. But its one thing to being pushed around and not let us play the same way. They called ticky tack fouls on us while they let them get away with shoving, armbars, dozens of illegal screens. If you're gonna not call fouls, make the no call for both teams. - Also it doesn't help that he has softer teammates who instead of fighting back, shut down on him. I'm sure you saw Ray Allen toy with Sasha Vujacic one on one with the court spread out in the 4th, while Kobe was on Pierce. Lebron has a good defensive unit around him. The team is constructed so that they have good tough physical rebounds and tough perimeter defenders who ball hawk very well so that they can keep the game close for him to do his thing. It is by design. Also those same guys bring other qualities to the table offensively, West, Gibson and co. are excellent 3 point shooters, so floor spacing definitely helps getting into the middle. Yeah right, that 03-04 squad, Shaq, Malone, Payton, Fisher, Fox, George, etc--they had no 2nd stars or role players? (Wait, I thought two of those guys in even more dinosaur forms were in the main rotation of Wade's title team? And hasn't Fisher been a pretty good role player the last couple of years?) - No I was comparing the 2007 Lebron squad to Kobe's 2006 and 2007 squad. If you put Kobe in Lebron's squad, he could've gotten to the finals as well at that time. - Malone was injured for most of the NBA finals and didn't play the last few games I believe (I think he started for like 2 minutes every game and that was it) - We all know Gary's big mouth. He shut down on us and he was complaining all year. Proof: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/PAYTO...ERS+ROUT+WIZARDS,+HE+COMPLAINS...-a0113781999 - Fox was done and George is a joke lol. Fish was alright but alright doesn't cut it. Wanna know who the rest of the cast were in 04? Kareem Rush, rookies Brian Cook and Luke Walton, Slava Medvendeko got the majority of the minutes upfront and he isn't even in the NBA anymore. - In 04 we beat Duncan and the Spurs after they took a 2-0 lead on us. Kobe destroyed them in games 3 and 4 back home. And last years squad, Gasol, Odom, Fisher, Sasha, VR, Farmar, Turiaff, Ariza--if I am not mistaken they were the deepest team in the whole playoffs. - Doesn't defense wins championships? how many of them are good defenders? Fish is good at drawing charges but thats about it. When the group as a whole goes through a dry spell offensively, what do you depend on? your defense? if you're not good at defense, whats gonna happen then? whats gonna keep you in the game? Look at all the boxscores Boston didn't score 100 not even once against Cleveland. You seriously think Lebron has played with those caliber players? Lebron took rag tag groups to a basket from beating the Celts and the in their prime Pistons, where as those opponents totally took Kobe and his team off his game. - Rag tag? Biz Z and Ben Wallace are no pushovers come on. Varejao does the most that doesn't show up on the boxscore. Ray Allen took a mini vacation and when Wally Sczerbiak is outplaying you, you know you're in a deep funk BTW Duncan was able to beat BW and those Pistons as well. There relating it back to the thread. Some people are great regular season players, some people are even greater players when all the marbles are down. The latter is why Duncan is a greater player than Kobe. (and why Lebron and Wade certainly have the potential too--in Lebron's case I think it is all but assured he will end his career ahead of Kobe in the rankings of the greatest) - Does Manu Ginobilli and Tony Parker ring a bell? - Duncan shot 41% from the field in the 2005 nba finals while Manu scored close to 19 on 59% shooting and parker with 14 points on 46% shooting. He had 2 other sources of help who could provide as much a scoring them as him
Man, where to start...... Well if we are talking injuries, maybe they don't get title 1 if Duncan doesn't get hurt and miss the 00 playoffs. The Spurs did sweep y'all the year before, you know. Maybe you don't win title 2 if half the Spurs team didn't age (Robinson) or retire (Avery Johnson, Elie), or if Elliott doesn't miss half the season. Maybe the entire playoff series is different if the Spurs don't lose their starting SG to injury that postseason...you know, their second leading scorer. The excuse game goes round and round..... And yeah, they lost because one of their players missed shots. Isn't that how teams usually lose? Shall we go through the annals of playoff history and note how things would be different if Player X shot better?
Right now, Duncan. But Kobe has a few years to surpass him and has the support to do so. 2-3 rings and 2-3 finals MVP's and imo, Kobe is better than Duncan all time.
In case you didn't realize, my point was that it's silly to make excuses....because everyone can. None of those players are better than Pau Gasol. Because V-Rad can stretch the floor while Odom can't. Because Odom plays better as a hyprid 4 (like he did when LA went to the Finals) than he does as a traditional 3 because his jumper isn't strong. You as a Laker fan should know this. Manu comes off the bench sometimes too, but he is still better than most SG's in the league. How can it not be that big when one of your bench players would be the 2nd best player for the Cavs? Give me Shaq and you can have all of them, especially if you throw Karl Malone and Gary Payton in too. Yes, they were paired together twice with a weak backcourt....starting dudes like Antonio Daniels and Terry Porter. They didn't become title caliber again until Parker and Manu matured. The 03 Spurs title team didn't have a strong supporting cast. Robinson was gone, Manu was a rookie, Parker was in his 2nd year, etc. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html No one said the team was devoid of talent, but it's clearly one of the few title teams without a 2nd star player since say, 1994 or the 04 Pistons.
In case you didn't realize, my point was that it's silly to make excuses....because everyone can. - And I was playing along. None of those players are better than Pau Gasol. - Pau Gasol is a worse defender than all of them. There is a reason why he's called Gasoft. Because V-Rad can stretch the floor while Odom can't. Because Odom plays better as a hyprid 4 (like he did when LA went to the Finals) than he does as a traditional 3 because his jumper isn't strong. You as a Laker fan should know this. Manu comes off the bench sometimes too, but he is still better than most SG's in the league. - WHy can't Odom stretch the floor? I thought he was talented and can do it all and he gets paid 14 mil a year so why can't he shoot? I'm tired of opposing fans saying he can do it all...no he can do a little bit of everything but he's not consistent at anything. If he can't shoot, can't he do other things to make up for the shooting inability in the starting lineup..no he can't, thats why he's benched. Wanna know his averages for the last 6 games? 4.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 2.3 TOs, 30% from the field in 25 minutes per game. He's going up against backups and look what he's doing. He was part of the 3 road meltdown last week in the 4th that lost to Indiana, almost lost to Washington and just able to keep the Sixers at bay Manu comes off the bench to score to run the plays, play defense and he does what he's told to do and is pretty damn good at it and at least finishes the game. Manu accepts his role and provides an extra scoring threat off the bench. He's the no. 1 option as well down the stretch. Odom is not even close to being in Manu's league. Manu does other things when things aren't going right and contribute in whatever way possible, Odom is a 10 year veteran and he still has to be babysit because Phil Jackson hurt his feelings or he's too tired to give his all in the games because he was partying the night before. How can it not be that big when one of your bench players would be the 2nd best player for the Cavs? - Odom? In terms of talent yea he's the second best...in terms of impact? Not even close. Ariza and Farmar have made Odom our "eight" man imagine how far down the list Odom would be for Cleveland. He's paper soft. Effin TJ Ford and Andre Miller ran right into his chest and Odom kept backpeddling and those guys scored layups all day long on him. Give me Shaq and you can have all of them, especially if you throw Karl Malone and Gary Payton in too. - Shaq in 04? Oh yea sure. The one that didn't lose 60 pounds in the 2004 offseason and didn't fix his toe/calf issues and was quite immobile, sure go right ahead and take him. Yes, they were paired together twice with a weak backcourt....starting dudes like Antonio Daniels and Terry Porter. They didn't become title caliber again until Parker and Manu matured. - Then I guess the Kobe/Shaq lakers were paired together with a weak supporting cast..Devean George? Brian Cook? GP's big mouth? (the only thing that was working in the finals)...isn't he known for taking pride in his defense? did he do anything, i mean ANYTHING to stop Chauncey Billups who was his opposing PG? No, wanna know why? because he was complaining all year about playing time and not having plays run for him. That was his first year he wasn't the No.1 or no.2 option on a team and he didn't accept it until he left that year. The 03 Spurs title team didn't have a strong supporting cast. Robinson was gone, Manu was a rookie, Parker was in his 2nd year, etc. - No. the 03 Spurs team had Robinson, Manu was a rookie but there was Stephen jackson who could light it up, Parker was in his second year but still scored in double digits and was hard to stop when he could get going. He's a shot creator, was there any for the Lakers other than Kobe? Someone who could take his man of the dribble and create nightmare in the lane? Were there any other solid defenders on the team? http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html No one said the team was devoid of talent, but it's clearly one of the few title teams without a 2nd star player since say, 1994 or the 04 Pistons. - They may not had a clear no. 2 player but they sure as hell had a handful of scoring options who could create for themselves and others while play good defense on the other end as well
Even though the Lakers are sitting atop the Western Conference, Lamar Odom also has been whining and moaning. Odom is miffed at not starting, and at his diminished playing time and shot opportunities. Throughout his tenure with the Lakers, Odom has had difficulty maintaining his on-court concentration, a situation that has been exacerbated by his part-time role. Odom is hereby advised to check out the standings and get his head out of his butt and into the game. - Here's an assessment of our 14 million dollar man from Charley Rosen, who's a close friend of Phil Jackson and if ya wanna know what PJ's thinking, read what Rosen writes. http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8894328/Warriors-need-to-play-more-as-a-team i'm sure "loss of focus" isn't something that the Cavs or Manu ever been known to do
