The supposed contact on Bryant came on a reverse layup in which he wasn't even facing the basket. A foul call on that play would've been a bail out. Duncan was facing up from the free throw line. BIG difference. Bryant was 0-4 from the field in the 4th quarter of the game.
A bail out? He's made countless reverse layups just like that one throughout his career...especially when they matter the most. And Duncan basically grabbed his arm and hit him with his body as well. CLEAR CLEAR foul. Now, Shaq's foul...game's on the line, little contact like that (replays made it seem like he hit the ball first) is rarely if ever called. Oftentimes, it's not called during the 1st/2nd/3rd quarter, let alone in the final 5 seconds when refs usually swallow the whistle. You got one thing right though, there is a big difference; one foul was clear as day, the other was disputable.
A foul call on a reverse behind-the-back shot is a bail-out. If you're a Laker fan though, I could see how you would be used to hearing that whistle.
SO TRUE. Seriously I am suprised by the lack of respect Bird is getting in this thread, heck I would still want the ball in his hands to win it, more so than Jordan. Although thats were Jordan excelled, having an average game then hitting the shots that were needed to win, very clutch. Now I would have to go with T-Mac he wants it and is not afraid. remeber when he went to the magic and everyone was saying he could be Carters "pippen" I think now if I had T-Mac and Carter on the same team carter would be the "Pippen" Carter could be very clutch, but i really dont think he wants it.
Bird has got a ton of props in this thread. The player with too many props is Reggie for the reasons outlined before (Reggie is a great clutch shooter BUT needs to be set up, the others don't). Kobe has more post-season evidence for clutchness over T-Mac, T-Mac can't get this mantle until he proove it with high stakes.
Actually, I saw some games about two or three years ago where Reggie was scoring almost at will without being set up in the playoffs. I believe he is a great clutch guy. Too bad he will never win a championship...
It just had to be someone with the name kidrock8 to question that. Kidrock the artist is the worst imatation of a rapper I have ever seen. The main thing is Jordan did get away with the push off in 98 and everyone saw it and so did the refs. It was just another example of the refs cheating for him. Just because it does not happen every time does not mean they didnt cheat for him a whole damn lot. Jordan fans sheeesh......
I dont think three replys constitutes a "ton" of props. I dont care if miller needed to be "set up" He had plays ran for him, he hit the shot when he needed to thats CLUTCH. Just because one person can create all by themselves and another uses his teamates to create does not make one player more clutch than another. I would have to reconsider T-Mac, the fact is there are few players in the NBA right now that i consider "clutch" mabey because the superstars are young and havent "proven" much yet.
I agree completely with LEWIS LLOYD2 here. It's okay to be of the opinion that Jordan is the best ever (I don't think he is), but it is r****ded to claim that he didn't push off on Bryon Russell. If you don't think so, watch the tape again. You WILL see it (unless you're blind, of course). Jordan had incredible talent (he had 11 triple-doubles in the first 13 games in which Doug Collins played him at point with the Bulls back in the day), but he was so favored by the refs it was almost funny. He traveled every second time he went to the basket, just like Shaq clears out on every second offensive possession today (if these players are so great, shouldn't they adjust to the rules instead of the rules adjusting to them?). He was also an overrated defender because Pippen always took the tougher assignment. Jordan is so hyped he is largely given credit for "leading UNC to victory" when in reality it was James Worthy's team without question. UNC never made it back to the Final Four without Worthy. Best player with the game on the line? Bird, no question. Not only could he shoot from anywhere and hit tough driving shots, he's one of the best passing big men to ever play the game. This topic should read "Best Player with the Game on the Line besides Bird, the obvious choice."
You were saying? What a shot today... from 17 feet, over the outstretched arms of Nowitzki as well. Of course, Dirk deserves some props in this thread too, after the great shot he made with 7.9 seconds to go. Overall, a great game today, and way to go Tim!
I only mentioned Duncan, and what I'm about to say isn't relevant to this thread, because I thought it hypocritical that some posters wouldn't frown upon his irresolute attitude towards his future with the Spurs. What? Does he think he's not good enough to carry the Spurs to another title by himself? Trade him then; we don't need him. It's a weak argument I've been seeing whose logic could be applied to 99% of the teams in the league. McGrady, Bryant without Shaq, Pierce, Nowitzki, etc.......all appear to be great players, but I question whether they'll be able to be the best player on a championship team. Might as well trade them. The 'best' player in the league theory regarding championships is not on a sound foundation logically, especially when you consider the current state of the league. History is bunk- when Shaq retires, or slows down within the next 2-3 years, what does and doesn't work in building a championship team will be revised. Present theories will soon be thought of as archaic. It was just a subtle jab at the recent outcry to shake up the current Rockets' team. Then again, maybe I'm just bitter that Duncan didn't lead the Virgin Island's swimming team to the promised land.....
My apologies, tpl. I should've read your post a little more attentively, but being the Duncan fan that I am, I thought you were seriously dismissing his ability in the fourth quarter based on a couple of bad performances, one of which came on a bad call. Though I may be biased, I would still rather have the ball in Duncan's hands when the clock is winding down. I like the luxury of going to a big man, especially one that can dribble the basketball, and if you foul Duncan he shoots over 80% from the foul line. I think part of the problem in going to a forward or center in the closing seconds is that contact is often drawn, and you can't count on them to consistently make clutch free throws. With Duncan, you can.
Great battle by Duncan and Dirk. I believe they are already on the same level. If these teams meet in the playoffs, it will be very interesting. You can notice that Dirk defers to the other guys in not so important games but usually comes up big in the big games. He is clearly the franchise man on that team. If a GM traded him it would be a total joke, tpl, can't believe you said that. Well, good thing about the great games by Duncan and Dirk is that they are both on my fantasy team .
Most of the posters who weren't being homers (talking about Rocket players) mentioned Bird right away. It is not like he was overlooked--that was my point. In my mind the best players with the game on the line have to create. Reggie is a great clutch shooter, but he is not the great clutch scorer that Jordan or Bird was. Granted it was great switching defense due to Jordan and Pippen, but in t he biggest moments in the Pacers franchise Reggie couldn't get off a decent shot. The very best would have found a way to at least get a good shot up. I agree with you Cat, you can't do much better in the waning second of a game than put the ball in TD's hands 12 feet away from the basket. The winner the other day and the foul that should have been called (probably winning the other game) further prove this. As good as TD is, maybe the 2nd best player in the league, he just doesn't have enough help with this Spurs teams to make a title run though--getting through the 1st round should be looked at as a success.
people actually think duncan should have gotten that call against shaq? sad. just freaking sad. looked to me on the tv like it was a good noncall because contact was unclear. and when nbc showed the replay from 3 different angles, and all three angles were unclear as to whether or not contact was made i knew it was a good noncall. you don't call a foul on a potential game winning shot when you can't see contact. that's a bailout. tim duncan, on the other hand, started on kobe bryant's wrist, worked all the way up his arm, and ended the play by smacking him by the face. and that's not a foul, but shaq's was? LOL. oh, and why no mention of the phantom offensive foul on horry that wiped out a shaq dunk? duncan tried to turn and tripped over his own feet and horry gets an offensive foul. weak. oh, and if duncan wasn't such a freaking pansy he would have fouled shaq out of the game already. shaq had 5 fouls when he went to guard duncan with about 5 or 6 minutes left in the fourth. what does duncan do? play on the perimeter. he jab stepped, jab stepped, jab stepped, then shot a fadeaway. or he jab stepped, jab stepped, jab stepped then threw a pass. never once did he take it inside against shaq and force him to play defense. if duncan wasn't such a weak p***y he would have been a man and fouled shaq out, and then proceeded to lead his team to victory.
Great take. As for that call, blood has to be drawn in order for a foul to be called in that situation. O'Neal hit his arm, no doubt about it, but there's no way that is called.
