Did the Celtics use Illegal Defense in the Finals?

Man, those were some physical games.

 

lol owned!

 

I want to say to the person who made this youtube video...

No currently present in the league:

- Handchecking (and sometimes even body checks)
- Defensive 3 seconds not allowed
- Flagrant Fouls didn't exist before 1990
- Dominant Centers with the physical frontlines (like Ewing, Olajuwon, David R, Mutombo, Mourning, and Shaq)...if people are out here raving about Andrew Bynum and Greg Oden. Then, center position is in sad shape. Almost all of the guys above came into the league averaging double doubles as rookie and improving their team substantially.


Hakeem improved his team by 19 games as rookie.
David Robinson improved his team by 35 GAMES as rookie.
Mourning improved his team by 15 games as rookie.
Shaq improved his team by 20 games as rookie.


The team that came the closest to knockoff the Bulls or gave them the most trouble had great centers.

Why is this topic about centers important, because it shows the level of talent in the league, and how much harder it would be to beat those type of teams. I don't think Kobe would be considered the best player in the league, if he played in the 90s or the 80s. He think he would've been a slightly more successful version of Dominque Wilkins, especially if he didn't have a great big man. Just look at what has happened in the Lakers, last two Final appearances.

 

I actually completely agree with most of what he says in this video. I guarantee you MJ would not have won all 6 of those championships if zone defense was allowed is his era. The first 4 minutes of the video are an awesome example as to why. Defenders are allowed to roam, then collapse. He was completely smothered.

 

These arguments can go either way. It's like asking if the egg came before the chicken...

 

In the first 4 minutes, it's mostly double teams on a player with the ball. That has always been legal. Teams always doubled Jordan once he had the ball.

 

Maybe tinman should put together a video on how Vernon Maxwell defended Jordan. Then all the Kobe lovers will know if Kobe cannot score on Shane Battier, he would have no business scoring on Mad Max one-on-one.

 

Video would be great, but here's the next best thing...the infamous "Jordan Rules". Today's legalized zones and no hand checking pales in comparision to what teams threw at Jordan.

Here's a quick summary by Chuck Daley:


"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing -- hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand -- but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.

"The other rule was, any time he went by you, you had to nail him. If he was coming off a screen, nail him. We didn't want to be dirty -- I know some people thought we were -- but we had to make contact and be very physical."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jack_mccallum/05/28/daly.lebron/1.html


Here's a more detailed explanation:


The guiding principle is that a defender is never left to guard Jordan unaided. Jordan's position on the floor dictates whether the Pistons trap him with a second defender or have the second defender play "help and recover" (that is, run at Jordan to stop his dribble, but then scramble back to his own man; Salley is a master at this ploy). The closer Jordan is to the basket, the more the Pistons go with the trap. When he is above the sideline hash mark (28 feet from the baseline), they usually play help and recover.

Even when Jordan is far from the basket, perhaps bringing up the ball as a point guard on a wide-open floor, Detroit runs a second player at him, someone like Salley or Rodman. This reduces the amount of open court that he has to work with and often forces him to give up the ball to a teammate. The Pistons always want someone else to handle the ball. Not sometimes. Always.

When Jordan has the ball on the wing, the Detroit player guarding him forces him toward defensive help. Most often that means turning Jordan to the right when he's on the left side of the floor and to the left when he's on the right side.

If Jordan happens to get isolated with one man and is in a potential scoring position, the Piston defender will try to force him to go left. They think he makes a stronger, more explosive move to his right. So does Jordan.

When Jordan tries to run a pick-and-roll, Detroit traps him. That means that two men, the one guarding Jordan and the one guarding the Bull setting the pick, run at him. The Pistons do this with remarkable efficiency, partly because that second defender is usually the 6 ft. 11 in. Salley or the 6 ft. 11 in. Laimbeer. The tall trappers make it almost impossible for Jordan to deliver the ball to a teammate rolling toward the basket, and their aggressive charge toward Jordan usually forces him to retreat.

When Jordan posts up near the basket, Detroit typically puts three men on him, with Dumars most often behind him, using his strong hips and legs to "body" Jordan away from the basket. When the entry pass comes in from the point guard, Thomas leaves that guard and double-teams Jordan. If that means the point guard is free, so be it. Meanwhile, another defender, perhaps Laimbeer or Salley, will have come over and planted himself in the lane, maybe on the baseline side, maybe toward the middle. Dumars will then turn Jordan toward that help. Jordan loves the baseline. "Even though there's less room down there, I can be more creative," he says. But by and large, the Pistons take it away from him.

When Jordan comes off a screen set near the baseline -- his most frequent maneuver when he's playing shooting guard -- a host of Jordan Rules come into play. Dumars must follow him around the screen -- no matter if he has to go into the bleachers -- to prevent Jordan from making a backdoor cut and receiving an alley-oop pass for an almost certain dunk. The Piston -- usually Laimbeer -- guarding the Bull setting the pick will step out to make Jordan receive the ball farther from the basket. In addition -- and this is important -- that man will guard against Jordan's making a "tight curl" off the top of the screen and suddenly looping back into the middle to take a short pass on the dead run, a circumstance that is almost always disastrous for the defense.
In most cases Jordan will have to step back and take the pass on the wing. Then Thomas will come over, creating a double team, and the process begins all over again. If Jordan puts the ball on the floor, at least two players stay on him, pushing him toward even more help. If he passes, the weakside defenders adjust to play two Pistons against four Bulls or one against three. As long as Jordan is out of the picture, they love those odds.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/flashbacks/jordan/891106/

 

LMAO

Where was the illegal defense? I only watched 1 minute but all I saw was Kobe getting doubled and secondary defenders rotating over when he put the ball on the floor. The biggest issue I saw was that when Kobe made the pass out of the double team his teammates made poor decisions and/or went to the rim like girls.

 

in this video, kobe either made the shot or got fouled, so what's his point, kobe is too awesome?

i bet this guy would even suck kobe's dick.

 

Zone defense was allowed. It just wasn't always called. The Detroit Pistons created an entire defensive scheme built around a zone for MJ. Just watch any of their playoff games if you don't believe me. And they were also allowed to body him up to keep him out of the lane, and knock his head off if he did get past them.

The Seattle Sonics ran zone all the time. Any Rockets fan should know this....at least the ones who have been watching since the early 90's.

Lastly, there was nothing illegial about most of those plays. Kobe got the rock and got doubled, or dudes converged on him when he penetrated. What's unusual about that? The only difference is the Celtics are great at rotating back after a double, Kobe shot like garbage (and took a lot of jumpers), and no one else stepped up.

 

Different era, different rules, it's harder to beat a team by yourself with zone allowed, that's my point.

Many said double team was allowed in MJ's era, true. What they don't understand is: if zone weren't allowed, it's much harder to double in time. MJ established position down low, no double, no second defender could be closer to him or it's easily illegal. MJ got the ball, now a 2nd defender's coming, by the time he's closer enough, MJ's already started his move towards basket or took turn around jumper, too late to bother him. He could always get a shot if he wanted, that's big difference.

With zone, you can always play certain level of collapse on Kobe, a soft double without ball makes sure he's always doubled when he gets the ball. Yes, with 2 passes, probably a player would be open at the corner, but that's not the point. Zone couldn't stop a good team, but certainly can shut down a good player. Celtics' defense was simple, double Kobe and let Odom take open outside jumper.

How many times we saw MJ backed down a smaller player and no one else was nearby, were they stupid? No, they just couldn't get to MJ before he's in the paint.