So republicans are wrong and democrats are right? Politics is not your local "hurrah - local sports team" mentality, even though the majority of americans view it as a competition, hoping their team will win, right or wrong. With that mentality, america will stay divided. It doesn't matter if you destroy a party, the same exact people will rise up in its place with a new name. Its time America starts holding the individual responsible for their actions, not the party. But you are right, the libertarians should focus on smaller elections where they will be more effective at adding an alternative to the flawed 2 party system.
None of these men represent conservatism as a whole. Tom Daley was a crook dressed up as a politician. Dick Cheney is at the extreme end of the right wing nuts who made war profiteering a viable black market. Karl Rove is the man who designed this house of cards that came down crumbling last night. Self interest appeasing opportunistic mad men do not equate to the definition of conservatism. Look I already stated the cronies in Bush camp long ago destroyed any resemblance to conservatism the Republican party had. The party in itself doesn't own conservatism but uses it these days as prop for their advantage. This NeoCon revolution is over and all these crooks have been exposed for what they really are.
There's a long list beyond those three that beg the question "Did Conservatism create these monsters or did the monsters use Conservatism?" Either way, the Republican Party needs to change. One problem you will continue to have is who defines Conservatism and... is the Conservative Movement the same as the Republican Party or a part of it? People are already hard at work on this...
I like it when Republicans take power and say how the Dems are a destroyed party and will never come back, just like when Dems take power and say the Republicans are a destroyed party and never come back.
Rimmy, the above post is precisely my point. In allowing itself to be used by the religious nutjobs, the GOP committed suicide. Although weslinder seems to think that the GOP can retain their support without infringing on everyone elses rights (delusional) and remaining unpopular with moderate independents, the reality is that there is literally no way that marriage (haha) can last without some appeasement. If the GOP is lucky, someone both charismatic and ruthless will strip that lunatic fringe out of the party and get back to that "western" style weslinder thinks is coming next. If that does not happen, the GOP will become even more entrenched in the theocratic dogma of the super-christian right and completely implode. If the latter occurs, you could get a third party.
If that's the case, maybe you need to buy a few hundred and mail it out to the folks plotting about where to the the Republican Party next. Seriously though, the Dems went through a transformation sloughing off the New Deal and assuming that coalition would be forever. Time for the Repubs to do something similar. The old hasn't worked and in fact has failed miserably. The Repubs need to not only rethink their philosophy, but also get serious about governing when they get their next chance.
I bet you could go back to the D&D from 2000 and 2002 and see these exact same threads, but you just switch Republicans and Democrats. Democrats have their chance! Better hope the recession ends in 2009 and doesn't stretch into 2010. People vote with pocket books over anything else and they always vote for the "other guy" when their pocket books hurt.
In your opinion, what is real conservatism? If you see it as being about lower taxes and smaller government then please identify where the spending and program cuts would come from. I think that conservatives have not done a good job of identifying what they really stand for, and that this has opened the door for the afore mentioned ne’re-do-wells to manipulate the rank and file Republicans. These people have used the calls for “lower taxes” and “smaller government” as simplistic rhetoric without a full follow through explaining what the impacts of these cuts would be. Doing this would have allowed people to hold them accountable, but I don’t think they wanted people to know what they were really up to. I think they just used this simple rhetoric to manipulate rank and file Republicans, and to get elected, and then they did what they wanted to serve themselves and their own interests. To prevent this from happening again I think conservatives need to take the level of discussion up a notch and to clearly identify what you really stand for.
And remember what Goldwater said in the early 80s....(paraphrasing) that social & religious issues, including abortion, have no business in conservative ideology, and that they would eventually cause the demise of conservatism. He was right. Goldwater, along with Ronald Reagan, are probably spinning in their graves after last night.
I think the State of Texas has one of the best examples of a conservative government. The State of Texas has one of the lowest tax burdens on its citizens, I believe its 44th out of 50. Despite a low tax burden, the state has been able to have spending levels that allow it to have a balanced budget and even produce somewhat of a surplus. One reason for good tax revenues, is consumer spending based on a good economy, even though most of the country is already in recession, the Texas economy has continued to grow. Part of this is the energy sector being a strong industry, but also the pro business environment in Texas has milked jobs out of the rest of the country for several years. This has lead to a diversification of industry within the state. Real estate also never really got out of control, so despite slowing real estate, Texas hasn't been hurt nearly as bad as the rest of the country. But most of that is besides the point. The conservative nature of politics in Texas (even a lot of Southern/Texas Democrats tend to be very moderate, like Bill White), the pro business environment, and reigned in spending has allowed for a good example of what conservative government CAN do. The perfect Republican to me would be one that really didn't care about social issues such as abortion or gay marriage, but would focus on running the government with a moderate spending hand, trying to pass on as much savings as possible to tax payers. Unfortunately, many republicans get mixed up in opposing so many social things, that ultimately don't mean anything and really have no place in government, that it destroys the ultimate, simplified message: spend less EDIT: I'm actually going to edit this: SPEND LESS. I don't think that's right when I look at it. I'd rather say SPEND EFFICIENTLY. Make the dollar you spend in government get the best bang, spending less is then the result, not the cause.
The GOP as we know it might hibernate for a while but it isn't gone for good. Obama's prize for winning the election is a poisoned chalice. The country is a mess and you better believe that unless he somehow turns this around in a major way (with half the country hating him) he is not only going to get the blame for everything that happens on his watch but he will retroactively be blamed for things that happened on Bush's watch. It took the country being in shambles and a horribly ran campaign by McCain to force a lot of people to try something different. Understand that without Obama performing a miracle these people will turn against him quickly and go right back to the party that they have loved being screwed by for 8 years.
I'll let Goldwater tell you, but anyone with any interest in politics should read Conscience of a Conservative. It's as important a book as Das Kapital or Walden.
Barry Goldwater is loads of awesome. Heard much about him while I was supporting Ron Paul, but never read his book. I'll get on that.
Glad someone brought up Goldwater aka the Mr Conservative. BTW all the dems whining about negative campaign need to pull out "Daisy" from their dusted shelves and look back at the monster they created. The prophecy: "When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican party and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye."
Thanks for that. Interesting stuff. I have to run right now but I’ll get back to this later on this evening
These are interesting quotes. I'll offer a few comments on them with the caveat that I haven't read the book yet and could well be not understanding his position completely without the full context of the book. The key to this quote is in how he defines extremism and moderation, but in general I would say that we all need to be careful to guard against extremism, because almost universally extremism is misguided. I'm not a postmodernist who believes that there is no universal good or evil, and that these concepts are merely constructs created by ourselves, or some group in order to control people, but I do believe that we humans are never perfect in our understanding of good and evil, and further that we make a lot of mistakes when trying to understand events that are happening around us and the positions other people hold with respect to these events. Extremists generally declare themselves completely correct in a given situation, and then close their ears and their minds thereby cutting of their chance to learn where their misunderstandings are and adjust their course of action, and they charge ahead with action that is almost invariably misguided and counterproductive, and generally very damaging. It seems to me that statements like this were often made in response to the "moral relativism" of the 70s and 80s, which is also often associated with postmodern thought. But one extreme does not justify another, and both end up being equally misguided, imo. Of course I could also be interpreting him incorrectly.
