1st ,the Palestines want more than the withdrawn from all the occupied territories. they also want Eastern Jeruslam (some people in Israel ,a minority are willing to negotiate) and of course the "tight of return" (0% of the Israeli will agree to that). 2nd ,we are not left without a choice ,we must reoccupied all the territories and start the negotiations but with the upper hand this time. Sharon and Arafat left us without any other solution. we might have to get all the guns from the palestines officers have right now (guns that they got from Israel after the Oslo agreement) withdrawing now from all the territories will show the Palestines that Terror actully win. 2 days ago I said that where I live I don't feel the terror ,but just 4 hours ago a suicide bomber exploded in a restaurant in my city ,Hiafa ,a restaurant where I ate many time...so that might change a bit my point of view even though I consider my self of the extreme left of the political map. Dan Lederman
No, they did not. They did not end their full occupation. Plus, the Arab summit is over and there is a summit proposal on the table now. They should seriously consider it. I'm so sick of this debate. It's never going to end because neither side is willing to do what it takes to end it. It is a war in that each side wants to be the victor...even in debate.
U think I want this stupid war ? I prefer 1 man life over 1000 miles SQ of land and territory. BUT didn't the USA respong to the terror attack with a war ??? what didn't they try to "talk" to Osama Ben Laden ? imagine the Sept 11th happens to you day by day....that what we're going through in the last months. Dan Lederman
Sharon's speech: uproot terrorism....to achieve cease-fire. He talked about several steps Israel did to achieve cease-fire and got terrorism in response. Arafat is enemy and is head of terror coalition. Israel's hand is outreached to Palestinians but not to terrorists. It's just the beginning...both sides are terrorists and neither side are terrorists.
Surfguy - They pulled their army out of the cities - what do you think "occupation" means? They have repeatedly pulled out and asked for a ceasefire. That is fact. Every time they are sent a suicide bomber. That is also fact. Do you expect them to repeat the cycle continuously? What in the f* do you expect them to do? They *have* already done what you "reccommended". The military action that began Friday is different. It is going to be the last one.
Franchise2000: What Baqui said may be offensive to YOU, but it is not a direct insult of a BBS member which is what treeman did. Opinions of all kinds are allowed here even if you or I think they are ridiculous, false or just plain stupid. What we do NOT want is personal attacks on idividuals. If you don't like his opinion, that is your right. It is also your right to vehemently disagree and to argue your point as well. That is what the board is here for. However, the attacks on individual BBS members are what will not be tolerated. Try to remember that this is a volitile issue on both sides. I'm sure there are plenty of Muslims who agree with Baqui and plenty of Jews who will side with you. What is important is that we are able to share our viewpoints here without calling each other assholes or ****ing idiots.
In this weeks newsweek, their's an an article about Israel, and also an interview with Ariel Sharon. Here are a few excerpts: Q:What do you say to Bejamin Netanyahu, who suggests going after Arafat and disarming the Palestinian Authority? A:There are 3 1/2 million Palestinians. Are we once again going to conduct their education, their health programs? Q:Can a ceasfire work? A:Real pressure should be put on the Palestinian Authority by the Americans. [The PA] must understand that if it continues terrorism, it will have to pay. Q:Will you allow Arafat to go to the [Arab Summit] meeting in Beirut? A: We have not yet decided whether to let him go. In talking to the Americans, I suggested I'll go to Beirut to talk to the arabs directly about what might be achieved, and I would welcome an American initiative to advance such a move. Q:You hinted that if Arafat went to Beirut, he might not be allowed to return. A:I don't rule out any options. Q:Whats your reaction to the recent plan proposed by the Saudis? A:Every initiative is welcome. What's interesting is the vision of peace and normalization with all the Arab world. But there appears to be a precondition - Israeli withdrawal to the '67 borders. Israel will not be able to do that if it wants to survive. ----------------- Heres what I see or think when I hear about all this. Israel does not want to give back what was Palestine's (see 67' border). This makes me think of Mexico taking over New Mexico, Arizona and some parts of California. Would the US fight back to get back what was theirs? If the US government didn't fight back surely the people would. What if Mexico took over that land, put their people on that land, started building their houses on that land and anyone else that had lived their originally got treated like a second class citizen not recieving health care, a oppurtunity to work and other essential things? Also, in the Israel vs. Palestine situation, a thought comes to my mind everytime I see a suicide bombing, or a "terrorist attack" in Israel. Is someone fighting to get back what was theirs terrorists? Israel runs into their land with tanks and roams their streets and houses looking for people with arms. They have lots of military power and have one of the best armys out in the ME. Meanwhile, Palestine has not tanks, no "army" and no planes or specialized warfare items. They have humans who are sick and tired of having their houses raided, getting second class treatment, and having their brothers, friends, and others picked up by the Israeli army as suspected terrorists. They have to make their own bombs at home, strap them to their own chests and go one on one with tanks. They are willing to lose their LIFE over this situation. I always see Ariel Sharon talking about "Israel won't be able to do this to survive." I haven't seen any Israeli men go out and risks their lifes because they know that they are protected by an army, they have jobs, they have hospitals. The Palestinians don't have anything.
What makes you think that the Israelis don't want to give the land back? They have repeatedly stated that they are willing to give it back in exchange for peace. They even formally offered it in the Barak deal (which when turned down, should have told everybody what the Palestinians really wanted). For the hundredth time, the vast majority of Israelis do not want the land. First off, why is "terrorist attack" in quotes? Are you insinuating that they're just freedom fighters - that they're not really terrorists? If so, then I'm about to make another personal attack, because that is about the most ridiculous claim than one can make on this subject... I guess Al Qaeda are freedom fighters, too? After all, their stated goal is to get us out of the Holy Land, so they're really just fighting oppressors... And technically, the land was never even "theirs". Please show me the treaty or constitution that gave them the land. Oh wait - they turned that down when the Israelis offered it to them, didn't they? Besides, nonviolent protest would work far better than suicide bombers. Please refresh my memory here: When was the last time a suicide bomber attacked a tank. Was there a tank hidden in that cafe? How about the aid station they just tried to blow up? Or maybe there was a tank hidden under the table at that Passover dinner? I will always come back to this: Maybe they should have thought about that before they attacked the Israelis? You know, had they just left Israel alone in the first place, none of this would ever have happened. Does the phrase "personal responsibility" mean anything to you? Anything at all?
Tell me you are kidding about this.....please?? Along the same lines, Osama seems to have problems with the US, and our foreign policy, yadda yadda yadda. Why didn't he try to talk to us instead of crashing three planes into US buildings and killing thousands of civilians AND many muslims? How do you respond after the 9/11 attacks? Do you call a Summit and ask Osama to come and talk to us about his problems and why he killed all those people? "So, Osama, it appears you have some issues with the US. What can we do to appease you so this won't happen again? SHare your feelings with us Osama."
Surfguy: Like treeman said, Israel already pulled out of the "occupied" lands last week. What happened? Suicide bombings.... I hope that Sharon does his best to find the real terrorists and I hope that their are minimal civilian casualties. Jeff: You made valid points on how he did not attack a BBS Member. However, he has branded EVERY Jew that believes in Zionism a NAZI. This is just as bad as using the N word for a black man(which would be deleted from the board). This is why I want an apology or ATLEAST a rewording of what he said. I also agree that it is OK for things that are false to be posted because we can prove them wrong. Baqui: Seeing that you have almost 900 posts you should know that you should comment before you just post a link. If you don't want to apologize or re-word, simply say so. Honestly, I could care less. Explain your reasoning and I will try to understand. You will find that I am very open-minded. My boss this summer was a Palestinian and we had great talks about the region. We probably have more in common than we have differences. We both go to U.T. I was an EE student for 2 years and I love the Rockets. But you have labeled me a NAZI. I DARE you to say that to my face. -Joel
I know what occupation means dammit. The Israelis only withdrew from the positions they took in their last incursion. That is not a full withdrawal. Did they withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza strip? Not that I'm aware of. Nothing is going to work anyway....it will go on and on and on. Israel is going to have to wipe out every one of them...they might as well drive them all out and go from there. To think Israel can dismantle the terrorist organizations....they better deal with Iran and others then. The US might as well make some bases over there in Israel to help out because they basically condone anything Israel does for the most part. Good luck.
HOOP-T : exactly my point.... the same way the USA started a war after 11/9 terror attack ,don't lecture us of what to do after daily terror attack in Israel. believe me ,we talked and talked and talked....the Palestines offers us only more terror atacks oh and I was cynical ofcourse in my last post .... DanL
Surfguy: Do you know why the Palestinian Authority was created? So that the Israelis could pull out and let the Palestinians deal with their terrorists. They have *repeatedly* pulled out of the territories - and I'm talking about pretty much complete withdrawals here - over the last nine years. Every time they pull out and have a cease-fire, the Palestinians start sending suicide bombers, and the Israelis get sucked back in. Why do you think that the media says things like "The IDF moved to reoccupy Ramallah today..."? How can they "reoccupy" a place unless they had already pulled out? This is not really about the occupation. It is about the Arabs' desire to see Israel destroyed and the Jews slaughtered. Until you admit that, then you will continue to be confused about the situation. And BTW, Iran "and others" will be dealt with before this war is over. Either by the Israelis or us. We have the same enemies, in case you haven't noticed.
Thank you treeman. This entire thing started due to the lack of religious tolerance on the side of the most muslim Palestinians and most muslim arabs. Here is a question for everyone... If there are muslims who can live normally without the threat of being killed in Israeli territory for the sole reason that they are muslim.. why can't there be Jews in Palestine(saying that a Palestinian state is created) who can live normally without the threat of being killed for the sole reason that they are jewish? Another thing I would like to discuss that goes with the topic of this thread:Arafat speaks of peace in English then preaches war in arabic. If you house(especially let them set up offices in every palestinian city, eg. hamas) and feed terrorists you are a terrorist. I do not care if he has no control over them, he is a terrorist and he should be treated like one. IMO, he orders the suicide bombing of the Al-Aqsa brigades. This is the radical wing of HIS own Fatah movement. To say that he has no control over them is BULLCORN(ill try to limit my *********** for ya Jeff). -Joel
tee hee hee. Let me try my own version...hmm....BULLDUNG. Yes! Anyways, back to the topic. Treeman, I don't condone random acts of terrorism for no good purpose such as the ones in the cafes, streets, or cars. That is wrong, I accept that and that is also what makes this thing quite confusing. Sometimes they do it for Palestine's freedom and then sometimes they do it for no reason at all. Same thing with Israel, sometimes they go and fight with the people shooting at them and then sometimes they just walk through neighberhoods and raid peoples houses.
You may be right, treeman. But, I think every Arab country is going to need to be dealt with in some manner as most or all side with Arafat and the terrorists who they see as freedom fighters with a just cause and Israel as the root of the problem. This could be leading to World War III. It seems there are many who want to draw a distinction in the fight against terrorism...like the Israel vs. Palestine issue and the Afghanistan issue are two different beasts. They are very much the same war. The US govt. is p***y-footing around trying to look good and balance the two wars against international opinion when really since we are fighting a global war on terrorism...we are directly involved. There is no way the ME issue will be anywhere close to resolved before our war against Iraq. The world is a gloomy place. It's hard to be optimistic about any of it. We've basically got a situation where the people who need to be dealt with for peace are not being reasonable and think you can talk peace while terrorists run amuck. Yet, the terrorists argue there can be no halt in violence until they get their way without negotiation. If there is no gesture left Israel can make to make a peace....which treeman your saying there isn't....then Israel needs to get the show on the road, quit fighting their war half-assedly, and do so without regard for Arab country leaders' public opinion...which is strongly against anything Israel does anyway. If that's the only way, then many more have to die.
You truly do believe that they're just freedom fighters, don't you? Ask yourself why they don't use time-delay fuses on their bombs. What I mean is, why don't they use time bombs instead of committing suicide? They have been brainwashed into believing that it is their duty to die in an attempt to murder Jews and destroy Israel. If you think that they are actually fighting for their freedom, then you really don't understand the situation at all. Freedom has nothing to do with it - it is all about mass murder, nothing more. Tell me, how many suicide bombers do you think will ever enjoy Palestinian freedom? As for Israel - You seem to think that the IDF just searches peoples' homes for the fun of it? Like, and IDF officer just says "I'm bored, guys. Let's go search some Palestinians' homes." They wouldn't have to search anybody's homes if nobody ever hid weapons, bomb making materials, and wanted terrorists in their homes. Maybe if they stopped doing these things the Israelis would have no need to search their homes?
