Then it may be too late. That's the motive for not accepting these violations regardless of circumstance or the perception that the effects are, for the moment, benign.
Giving up any freedoms is 100% diametrically oppossed to the principals our country is founded upon....read Thomas Jefferson's papers on government's role... How do you know your line hasn't been crossed? What if the government heard you say you were going to get bombed on a weekend and then decided to wire tap your house, and check you internet usage? Say, one of your neighbors at this point leeches onto your unprotected wireless netork and surfs some kiddie p*rn, then your house is raided your computers confiscated and your bank account depleted as you fight charges that are completely bogus to you. Of course, they tapped into your phone using the patriot act, same as checking your internet usage....all WITHOUT a proper warrant. Giving the government too much power is a very bad thing... DD
In the same vein, what if they tapped into your neighbors phone/Internet usage and discovered he was going to blow up your block? If you are going to argue one extreme, you need to argue the other as well.
The Patriot Act is a double-edged sword, in order maintain to safety of the people we need it in some shape or form without abandoning too much of the ideal liberties we are fighting so desperately to protect in the first place. I can understand each side of this debate and know where its coming from. This would all be much more clear to the people if the government wasn't so secretive in the implementation of this program. Someone who says he doesn't care cause he's got nothing to hide has no idea until his rights are infringed. In same sense when you strip the government of preventative measures and the ability to act instantly then you render them incapable of providing the security for the people which is clearly defined in our Constitution. In the end what sums it all best in my view is that, without liberty there is no Constitution and without protection of the people there is no place for a Constitution.
The Reichstag Fire Decree (German: Reichstagsbrandverordnung) is the common name of the Order of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State issued by German president Paul von Hindenburg in direct response to the Reichstag fire of February 27, 1933. The decree nullified many of the key civil liberties of German citizens. With Nazis in powerful positions of the German government, the decree was used as the legal basis of imprisonment of anyone considered to be opponents of the Nazis, and was used to suppress publications not considered "friendly" to the Nazi cause. The decree is considered by historians to be one of the key steps in the establishment of a one-party Nazi state in Germany. link
I think it is important to read up on the surveillance power of military intelligence and the CIA. We don't need a Patriot Act to stop terrorists. Safety is not an issue at all, it is freedom and the Bill of Rights.
The first part doesn't bother me, it actually makes me glad we have it. The second part would be interesting, but I don't use a wireless network, and it would be secured if I did. Has this occured to someone? I find that to be a very interesting scenario, altough it seems extremely unlikely to occur. Hmmm... I think if I see evidence of this occuring, it could change my opinion. That would cross the line. If the law allows that much generalizing, than it definitely needs to become more specific, and not allow such behaviors. I need to look at this law more closely when I have time to see what all they can still do.
I've said this before and I'll say it again: The constant pursuit of our individual rights at any cost will be America's downfall. The ONLY way I would vote to repeal the Patriot Act is if the World is on the same playing field, playing by the same rules.
I'll risk the terrorist attack and choose the "fringe freedom." And, if we as a country would like to choose safety, I'd at least like to do it with a super-majority of Congress and the States.
I choose liberty......and law enforcemnt. If they want a wire tap, then take the evidence to a judge and sort it out. DD
An exaggeration still. You don't have to be friendly to Republicans under the Patriot Act, just America. I admit, it is possible it will be too late to stop them by the time they've gone too far. I know this is about being a precident.
Yes, it's not as if the FBI is massively abusing its power by not having to go to an independent judge for a court order. And the NSA, previously barred from spying on Americans, isn't getting in on the act, or anything. Every phone call you make, the record of which is sent on to the government. Right now. Every website you search, every email you send, is passed through government filters. Right now. No warrants; next to no oversight. Right now. That we as individuals are not now personally affected is no reason to acquiesce to this state of affairs.
For the constant argument of 'less government', not trusting them with our tax dollars, etc. yet trusting the government w/ our very basic rights to privacy (considered one of the most American of our rights) is really...I'll say it again, baffling. The mindset that it doesn't matter because it doesn't directly effect *me* is being ignorant of history. The point is not that it doesn't effect *me* now, but to stop it before it will effect *me* or someone I know. BTW, can someone dig up that recent thread on military personnel's private phone calls to home? Some calls were 'phone sex' type calls and were joked about and discussed among people who were monitoring them and resulted in an investigation. My search skills fail me. EDIT: BTW, most people are not against the Patriot Act because of Bush. That is ignoring what everyone has been talking about. That's why many would support repealing it even if Obama is the next President.
Except it has not done that. It has produced a paltry 39 convictions with a median sentence time of 11 months. I kind of doubt 11 month sentences reflect earth-shattering bomb plots of enormous gravity. In fact, it has been so ineffective at aiding in anything, the FBI had to LIE to get NSLs added.
There would be no "post 9/11" world if the laws on the books had been enforced and our government agencies responsible for preventing terrorism had done their job. The USA Patriot Act is a classic example of the government using an event to add more laws and take away more freedom when it is not even enforcing the ones that exist and would work if our tax dollars were actually being put to good use.
I am willing to let those people plot and scheme and think they will be caught the old fashioned way. DD
I have this bookmarked: Report: U.S. spied on Americans' intimate conversations abroad Also, just to add to the list: NSA's Domestic Spying Grows As Agency Sweeps Up Data What the heck, screw posse comitatus, CIFA too: Pentagon Expanding Its Domestic Surveillance Activity Note: Wall Street Journal CNN New York Times Washington Post USA Today Not exactly 911TruthSquad.whackjob.net.
It is certainly an exaggeration to compare America today to Germany in 1933. There is no Nazi party. But the same destruction of liberty will either create something of like kind or allow the existing unbridled use of power to grow dangerous enough. We have too many Executive Orders, bad UN treaties and the Patriot Act along with a miriad of similar legislation that is slowly boiling this frog we call liberty and freedom. Hate speech laws eventually become thought police weapons. Terrorists could one day become anyone who disagrees too strongly with the govt. You are right, at that point it is too late to stop them... And I would say at this point it is too late also. Expect no action on the Patriot Act, unless it is made worse.
