Why do people associate religion with moral values?

Since no one has properly answered your questions, please allow me to have a go.

I'm an atheist.

I believe that atheists, like any other human being, or even most animals, are the result of billions of years of evolution and natural selection.

To a great degree, our instincts and morals are hardwired into our brain by evolution. These instincts include avoiding danger, procreating, caring for our young, and helping each other. Such instincts are not restricted to human beings, most mammals or even reptiles exhibit the same behaviors. Without these basic instincts, a species would degenerate and cease to exist very quickly.

Humans are weak individually, and the reason that we have survived evolution this far is that natural selection has hardwired a set of behaviors into our brains. These behaviors are what we can "morals" today. We feel guilty when we harm our peers, because natural selection has taught us that hurting each other is bad for the survival of our species. Similarly, we feel happy and fulfilled when we help our peers out of trouble, because natural selection has taught us that helping each other is good for the survival of our species. These evolved behaviors (morals) are so strong that they can only be overriden by more basic instincts such as immediate survival.

So, to answer your question. Atheists, like any other human beings, do not need a book or a religion to teach us what morals are. Morals are mostly hardwired into our brains. As a species, human beings are designed by natural selection to behave in a way that will not cause our species to degenerate. Our moral can be summed up in two things: do not be an ******* to your peers, and help your peers in need. This is how we have managed to survive before we even had religion.

 

Great post newplayer, it's exactly how I feel/think about it.

 

Natural selection? Please elaborate on your definition of natural selection and how you think that is applicable to atheism.

As I understand, you are telling me that Atheists have advantageous characteristics... What characteristics are those?

Also, you claim that as a human you have morals naturally, but you don't offer any proof of this. Animals display poor morals. Everyone before religion displayed poor morals. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. To put it plainly, why do you think that your morals evolved regardless of anything else?

I need to know the root. What you're basing your judgement on.

 

Morals aren't hardwired except where they instinctually promote the success of the individual. They are software, installed during the prolonged period of the socialization process. Societies develop their moral stance over long period of times and certainly religion is the basis for most moral norms in most societies.

But 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' ... does not require a creator or damnation to be seen as a logical foundation for social interaction. It implies empathy and the identification of the individual as a part of a greater whole. Secular morality only needs 'the greater good' for it's justification; the best life for the most people.

 

To answer, "Why do people associate religion with moral values?"

Quite simply because religious practice also entails adherence to a "divine design" to ascend to a higher plane of being(; though the validity of whatever design in question being of divine origin is up for debate).

Actually, atheists are in the same boat; however, their design is of "purely natural" causation.

Dat you Ron?

 

As per wikipedia

In simple terms, natural selection means that if a species can change its behavior to adapt to the environment they are living in, then they have a better chance of survival.

For example, species that care for their young are more likely to survive than species that do not care for their young. This is self-evident in mammals, because most mammals care for their young until the children can look after themselves. Can a newborn baby human/cat/dog/primate survive without the care of its parent?

Even many species of reptiles look after their eggs even after they've hatched, e.g. crocodiles and snakes.

I don't know if you believe primates or cats are religious, but if you don't believe so, then how would you explain why these mammals care for their young in the same way humans do?

There are other species that mass produce offsprings, and some of them do not care for their children. However, the mass production is their own adaptation to their environment.

No, you got it totally wrong. I'm telling you that all humans, no matter what they believe in, are equally equipped with the same instincts and morals that come from millions of years of evolution, and therefore do not need a religion to teach them why they should love and care for their children, or help their peers in need, or avoid harm.

The proof is really everywhere. Do you feel guilty if you hurt someone? If you do, that's because your brain is hardwired to tell you that hurting your peer is bad for your species. Do you love your friends or pets? If you do, that's because your brain is hardwired to tell you that caring for those that you love is good for your species.

Animals, especially mammals, exhibit very similar behavior as humans, albeit much more crude. Just watch national geographic to see how primates, cats, dogs, or even whales care and protect their young. You can also see how weaker animals like birds or wild buffaloes always live together to use their numbers to fend off predators, whereas straying birds or buffaloes tend to get picked off. These are just a very small fraction of the evidence for evolution.

I don't understand why you would say people before religion had poor morals. Where are the records that show that people before religion had poor morals?

The root is everywhere. Just ask yourself why you love the people you love? Does the love come from the teachings of your religion, or yourself?

 

newplaya,

Your point on natural selection is noted. However, natural selection would have taken a different path had humans decided that eating each other was good for the soul.

You're just not hitting the root. What makes you think that caring for your young is instinct? How do you know that it was there in the first human? If natural selection rooted out those without the instinct, then how do you define instinct? Is it tangible? Is there any empirical data of its existance?

If you're telling me that society teaches us this, then I will tell you that religion taught society this in the first place.

Animals protect their offspring but they kill each other. Do we kill each other in the same way? No, someone told us not to and as a result, we saw the benefits of that.

There's just no empirical evidence that would show that our morals would be where they are if not for religion. I will concede that we don't know if they would have been better or the same either.

But it all comes down to faith. You believe something that requires faith backed by some substance. Religious people are in the same boat.

 

I never said you needed a book to TEACH YOU MORALS
I asked about a Book that has your Morals Written in them
A place where others can say . . .aaahhhh this is what Atheist beleive
so
When you fall short of meeting those goals. .they can bear witness
as some Atheist like to do to religious folx

Without a book . . you morals are you own
and
Honestly . . when you fall short it is a private matter
[which it all should be but that does not stop others from bashing ]

Hard to say an Atheist is going against his morals because
their is no documented proof ..
whereas with a religious person . .you open up their book and can point o Chapter and Verse

ONE MORE THING
All Morals are learned. .they are not IMO in your genetic Code

Rocket River

 

The God Delusion is a popular place to start.

Excerpt:

The 'New Ten Commandments':<ol><li>Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you
<li>In all things, strive to cause no harm
<li>Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.
<li>Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
<li>Live life with a sense of joy and wonder
<li>Always seek to be learning something new
<li>Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.
<li>Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
<li>Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
<li>Question everything

 

Thanks
I will check it out
and
If I find a Atheist that does not follow it. ..
I can talk about how crazy and stupid he is for not following his own book right? [that is thrown in for jokes ]

but seriously. . i will check it out

Rocket River

 

I don't think we needed a "higher power" to develop morals at all. Reasons to have morals and values... how about common sense? How about motivation to belong in a civilized society?

Even though that has absolutely nothing to do with decision making in politics, economy, and war?

You kill someone... you go to jail. You steal something... you go to jail. I'd have to say that's enough motivation to not commit those crimes. Notice how I didn't need religion at all to come to those conclusions. I used nothing more than logic and common sense. Not to mention the emotional guilt and regret associated with committing a crime like that.

Not if you believe in science, mainly, the Laws of Physics.

 

"The best data we have (concering the origin of the universe) are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Pslams, and the Bible as a whole."

- Nobel-winning physicist, Arno Penzias


(i don't really wanna have this discussion, but just find this quote interesting...carry on! )

 

That is all from the bible.

So at least take the 'New' off of the commandments.

 

except Jesus takes it even further and suggests you should be praying for your enemies and for those who mistreat you.

 

morals are in the eye of the beholder

 

This reply is to Mathloom and Rocket River. I don't think it is possible for me to convince you, and this is my last try.

Sure, but it would be highly unlikely for human beings to exist today if we had all practiced cannibalism since our species first emerged. We would have eaten ourselves into extinction a long time ago.

If caring for your young was not instinct, then why would you care for your children instead of spending your time and money making yourself happy? What makes you love your children?There are millions of atheists in the world, are you suggesting that we are all incapable of loving our children because we are not religious?

Caring for your young is a general instinct that exists in almost all the mammals. The mammal species acquired this instinct long before the first humans emerged.

Instinct is something that we do without thinking, because it's hardwired into our brain. If you don't understand what instincts are, please look up a dictionary. If you ever do something without thinking, like using your arms to protect your face when someone takes a swing at you, that's your instinct at work.

Human society is a result of human evolution. Humans are evolved to exist in a collective society to seek mutual protection, this is before the concept of religion. Primates, lions and wild buffalos also exist in less sophisticated societies, are they also religious?

There are two things here. Most animals are not cannibalistic, which means they will not kill each other for food. However, predators will kill other animals for food -- this is exactly the same as how we kill cows for food. We also kill each other for the same reason why animals in the same species kill each other. Whenever there is a murder, the police have to find a motive: sex, money, political power, or self-preservation. These are all basic animal instincts that come from natural selection.

I totally disagree with you here, because there is a huge amount of empirical evidence for the evolution of our instincts and morals.

If you don't believe that we need a book to teach us morals, then why do you insist on seeing a book? Are you incapable of making your own judgment of right or wrong without someone else telling you?

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Your moral is your instinct. If you feel guilty because you hurt someone, that's your moral/instinct at work. The proof is every where.

Gee, I guess everyone who's illiterate must be immoral then ...

 

The self evident logic of moral behavior requires wise men to develop religions to influence the masses of those without the capacity to see it for themselves.

 

newplaya,

I agree, I doubt we will come to an agreement. I can't agree that covering your face for protection is instinct. I believed it is learned. You will only do this after you have learned that something hitting your face will cause damage. You will only learn THAT once damage has been caused or you have seen it happen to someone else.

To me, similarly, morals are learned through personal experience or others' experience. The key point here is that everyone learned it from a religion. Therefore you cannot deduce that it would be better, worse, or the same had religion not existed.

Can you agree with this at least? That there is no empirical evidence of an independent sample which would prove that morals are developed naturally without influence from religion?