Yao's Defense

pacmania · Aug 25, 2008

agentkirb87 said:

I agree with your examples. Big guys can't guard peremeter players. Even Battier cant guard guys like Gasol. But guys like KG can guard players at the elbow and contest their shots while Yao can't. Yao has to stand back a few feet and force them to shoot over because they will just dribble around Yao. And it doesn't matter how good our defensive system is, if Yao doesn't have the ability to shutdown quick bigs other than hope they miss open jumpshots, no one will ever consider him an elite defender.

But you were trying to use it to say that Yao is a better defender than Howard. Why do the first 3 years of your career even matter if we are talking about NOW. If the question is "has Yao been a better defender than Howard throughout his career", then use career stats, sure. But we are talking about NOW.

I'll agree with that, but you are missing the point. The point is that the reason Yao's career numbers are better is because Howard was basically a project for 3 years, Yao was definitely not.
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Considering that he was the only Asian player with significant talent that was playing in the NBA , it is hard to believe he was not a project.

pacmania · Aug 25, 2008

pacmania said:

Racial discrimination in the US is not a myth , it is a reality.

When an Asian averages more blocks than an african american who is touted to be one of the best centers of the league ( hence a valid benchmark) , it does not qualify him as an "above average defender".

And yet when an african american player like garnett became defensive player of the year when the previous year he was a mediocre defender under a previous system the reaction is " he is the freakin defensive player of the year!! My God" . It is so unfair to diss the accomplishments of an african american player and yet it is justifiable to diss the accomplishments of the only asian player in the NBA. tsk. tsk.
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correction the only asian player with significant talent currently playing.

pacmania · Aug 25, 2008

CometsWin said:

First of all, who the heck is talking about Dwight Howard? This thread is about Yao Ming's defense? I never said a thing about Dwight Howard's defense. Sounds like the Yao Ming lovers can't say anything about Yao without bringing up Dwight Howard's name.

Second of all, blocked shots aren't the only indication of defensive ability but they are important for a center and since Yao is the tallest player in the league it's important to understand why someone like Shawn Bradley, the player most similar to Yao's height, is a far superior shot blocker to Yao.

Yao has slow foot speed, he has slow lateral speed, he has slow reaction time, he jumps slowly, and he jumps slowly on multiple jumps. The only players that Yao is going to "shut down" are the players that #1 do not have a jump shot to bring Yao out on the floor, #2 do not have the quickness to create separation on their shots over and around Yao, or #3 players that don't have a skilled post up game. So a player like Dwight Howard, no jump shot and no post moves, is going to struggle against Yao Ming in a half court offense but he'll kill Yao in a fast break offense. This is not because Yao is an above average defender it's because Dwight Howard is a below average skilled offensive player. He can't bring Yao out to 15 feet and shoot over him. He's not skilled enough to bring Yao out and drive past him and he's not skilled enough to post Yao up and give him multiple offensive moves to score. Dwight Howard scores 20 points per game because he can jump and he's strong, he cleans up the boards and gets a lot of dunks.
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We're talking about Dwight Howard because he is a benchmark ( a comparison or standard because he is touted as one of the best centers.)

Numbers and statistics don't lie. they are objective facts.

I didn't know there were so many apologists here of Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett. Fans apologizing for their weakness and accentuating their strengths. tsk.tsk.

wingz0 · Aug 25, 2008

pacmania said:

Racial discrimination in the US is not a myth , it is a reality.

When an Asian averages more blocks than an african american who is touted to be one of the best centers of the league ( hence a valid benchmark) , it does not qualify him as an "above average defender".

And yet when an african american player like garnett became defensive player of the year when the previous year he was a mediocre defender under a previous system the reaction is " he is the freakin defensive player of the year!! My God" . It is so unfair to diss the accomplishments of an african american player and yet it is justifiable to diss the accomplishments of the only asian player in the NBA. tsk. tsk.
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This is, quite possibly, the most inane response yet in this long and drawn out thread... Why bring race into this pacmania? Why? What point are you trying to make?

And really, you think Garnett is a mediocre defender the previous year? When 3/4 of his roster consisted of scrubs?

Also, just for your info, the Celts do not use Garnett in a zone to cover up his "defensive deficiency". If you bother to watch any team outside of the Rox in the past few years at all, you'll realise that Garnett has always been a one-man zone around or at the top of the key, even for the Timberwolves, because he is so incredibly long that he can disrupt passes around the key and then slide back down to help around the low blocks.

durvasa · Aug 25, 2008

pacmania said:

And yet when an african american player like garnett became defensive player of the year when the previous year he was a mediocre defender under a previous system the reaction is " he is the freakin defensive player of the year!! My God" . It is so unfair to diss the accomplishments of an african american player and yet it is justifiable to diss the accomplishments of the only asian player in the NBA. tsk. tsk.
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Who the hell ever claimed that Kevin Garnett was a mediocre player the previous year? He was voted to 2nd team All-Defense in 06/07, for pete's sake. And Garnett has gotten his fair share of criticism throughout his career, even in the playoffs last year. I don't know where you were going with that example.

CometsWin · Aug 25, 2008

pacmania said:

Racial discrimination in the US is not a myth , it is a reality.

When an Asian averages more blocks than an african american who is touted to be one of the best centers of the league ( hence a valid benchmark) , it does not qualify him as an "above average defender".

And yet when an african american player like garnett became defensive player of the year when the previous year he was a mediocre defender under a previous system the reaction is " he is the freakin defensive player of the year!! My God" . It is so unfair to diss the accomplishments of an african american player and yet it is justifiable to diss the accomplishments of the only asian player in the NBA. tsk. tsk.
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Yao is a mediocre defender because the league hates Asians? Seriously? Kevin Garnett is one of the most multifaceted defenders in all of basketball. He can even guard point guards from time to time. You are just not equipped to have a discussion on Yao's abilities and inabilities.

Since stats never lie.

Here are the stats of a 22 year old Dwight Howard and a 22 year old Yao Ming. You tell me which player you'd rather have.

Dwight Howard - 20.7 pts/game, 14.2 reb/game, 59.9 FG%, 1.3 assists/game, 2.1 blocks/game, led league in rebounding, 1 playoff victory, 1 gold medal

Yao Ming - 13.5 pts/game, 8.2 reb/game, 49.8 FG% 1.7 assists/game, 1.8 blocks/game

BTW, what "accomplishments" have I dissed? Did Yao lead the league in rebounding or blocked shots or scoring? Did he win the MVP or the Defensive Player of the Year? Did he finish all defensive first or second team? The guy has never won a playoff series and hasn't even played a full season in THREE YEARS. What accomplishments does he have besides getting voted into the All-Star game? He "shut down" Eddy Curry, the noted All-Star from the vaunted New York Knicks? Seriously?

This is why people say Yao Ming is overrated.

timegone · Aug 25, 2008

agree

especially in the FIBA system, no defense 3 seconds

Airson · Aug 25, 2008

acctually, I agree with you.

Butterfingers said:

Ive noticed that a lot of people have mentioned that Yao is not a very good defender, or at least average at best. I've always been under the impression that Yao has been a quality defender. I attribute the reasoning for us being a top 3 defense every year to Yao's great (imo) post defense. He obviously has height and is a good shot blocker, averaging over 2 blocks per game. This isnt even including the numerous shots he alters just by standing his ground near the basket.

I know he's slow and relatively unathletic but he is actually pretty quick for his size. Whenever he gets into foul trouble its usually because he's coming across to help his teammate out on the weak side. I honestly can't see how people can honestly say Yao sucks at defense and is overrated and all that nonsense. IMO he is severely underrated in regards to his defense.

Here is how I would rank our starters according to defense:

1. Ron (assuming he starts over battier)
2. Yao
3. Rafer
4. T-Mac (i could put him last but i put him ahead of Scola due to the fact when it's playoff time and he actually wants to defend he is a damn good defender.)
5. Scola (putting him last isn't saying hes a bad defender but he is the worst in comparison to our other starters.)

So can someone honestly tell me where this talk of Yao sucking at defense is coming from?

P.S. I'm not chinese nor am I a Yao fan boy. And I dont have search so I apologize if this has been discussed recently. I dont want to look like that r****d who posted the "whose the best big 3" thread.
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