Here is the joke I heard: there swimmers wish China have similiar pharmaceutical technology as the US so that they could dope like Jones without being caught. They also nickname Phelps as the "doping lord".
No but it does change the fact that he knew what he would have needed to do to fight for a gold medal in the 6th routine had the scores in the 5th routine been correctly tallied. No one knows what would have happened in the last routine had Hamm knew he needed a certain score in order to win gold. He could have changed his routine and done the perofrmace of a lifetime, he could have stayed the course and come in second or he could have totally choked under the different circumstances. NO ONE KNOWS if he would have won, lost or tied, so it would have been unfair to strip him of his gold. Again, it was unfair that they screwed up the Korean's score but Paul Hamm should not be punished because we don't know what he would have done on his final routine had the mistake not been made.
I am not saying it's OK. But we are discussing Olympics, ain't we? Otherwise it would be a lot more fun, you know, with all the stuff going on in MLB
1. China DOES have similar pharmaceutical technology. China isn't some backwater underdeveloped nation. 2. Michael Phelps is one of the (few) top athletes who have opened themselves up to a policy of testing at any time and any place. In addition, he has agreed to have his blood/urine/hair samples preserved so that FUTURE tests can be run to detect PEDs. Same thing with Dara Torres. 3. The results of such tests are open to the international community. Can China say the same about its doping tests? 4. How is that a joke?
One Marion Jones and now the entire nation is cheating. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I am sure that there are some cheating going on here as well but I am also pretty certain that all the communist countries cheat a lot more than us.
China had the harshest punishment for doping. Two top swimmers and their coaches were banned for their lifetime right before the Olympics, which appears too harch to me.
That's not too harsh for me, but that doesn't answer my question. Where the government controls all media - even the internet, to a large extent - and jails or kills dissenters, there can be no open verification of their testing protocols and results. I think it's a good sign that they caught and punished the dopers, but until they open themselves up to external scrutiny, there will always be doubt (at least in my mind).
This is a typical misunderstanding from people of a different culture. Yes, many of them started training at early ages and they trained very hard. But it's not like they were taken away from their parents and put in a labor camp. Nobody can force you if you want to quit. They and their family choose to do so because of the honor, the money, or as a way to find a life on a bigger stage (some of them are from poor remote areas), or simply because they like it. Yes many of them fail to win big and have to deal with real life challenges, but do you blame David Stern for failing to make most of the bb players' dream coming true? The athletic training system in China is a pyramid type of structure. The majority of them only train after school and live with their family. Only after they emerge from others and are selected to provisional/national teams, they have to live apart from family for most of the time. Yes it sounds cruel but you you have to realize it's only a small number of elite athletes and you should not judge it as a moral thing. Instead, it's a cultural thing and it has nothing to do with communism. Otherwise, there would be no contortionists in your west/developed countries. Talking more about the culture/morality, culture/communism perspective, you guys growing up in the west have to understand the difference of those. Yes lack of freedom in China is against people's free will, but you gotta to understand that many things that you find strange or unacceptable have nothing to do with the government. It's not rare that some Chinese athletes keep training/playing even family tragedy happens, either not aware of it or choose to do so. This normally happens when it's before and during big games. And such things are often complimented in public (though changed gradually in recent years). I believe it's abnormal in many of you's eyes but be noted that it's not due to the damn CCP. I know this because I have seen so often that the parents, including mine, intentionally hide the news of their illness from their children who are away in college or overseas just because they think so highly of your study. Personally I don't like this and hard for me to explain to you why many Chinese believe so. Anyway, my point is, there is no simple black/white in cultural differences, and people must be humble (including you and us) to deal with this to avoid ignorance, prejudice or conflict.
I don't know what the truth is, but you appear to know what you're writing about, so until shown otherwise, I will accept your explanation and admit that I was wrong. If it's a cultural thing, then you're right - I don't understand it.
Very well said, David. Chinese culture emphasize on sacrifice, be it to family, friends, or country, right or wrong, that's deeply rooted in mind. Growing up in China, I could sense that people in generation of my parents or grandparents would almost feel ashamed if they put themselves ahead of the family. Everything is ahead of yourself. I agree it's not nature, but that's how it was. Nowadays, young people are seeking for more individualism and self-interest, which is a good thing. But still, the sacrifice in Chinese culture is not going to be changed for a long time. Intentionally or not, people are painting small children training as inhumane. Let's be honest here, 3 years old ones? How much train can you do with 3 years old ones? One can believe commies are all evils, but they are not supermen. Shawn Johnson started training at 6, and she loved it, and her family supported her throughout her career. When it comes to Chinese, it's forced by the evil CCP government? Common sense or simple logic never apply to anything negative about China, just like the breaking news of banning black people from bars in Beijing. What happened to that, by the way?
Shawn joined Chow's gym at 6, but started training before that. Another example is contortionist. The average age for a contortionist to begin training is two years of age, yet seems most Americans enjoyed their performances in LV, or on American's Got Talent.
BTW, since we are digging up old history to make a "point" - whatever it may be. Here is my contribution, although I am not sure how true it is, you will be the judge. Carl Lewis's positive test covered up Carl Lewis's positive test covered up By Jacquelin Magnay April 18 2003 Olympic legend Carl Lewis is among more than 100 American athletes involved in a cover-up of drug use, documents reveal. Lewis and two of his training partners all took the same three types of banned stimulants and were caught at the 1988 US Olympic trials, according to the documents released by a disgruntled former senior US anti-doping official, Dr Wade Exum. But on appeal to their national Olympic committee, all were cleared of inadvertent doping. Two months later, at the Seoul Olympics, Lewis finished second in the 100 metres sprint. But when Canadian Ben Johnson failed his Olympic drug test, Lewis was awarded the 100m gold. Lewis also won the Olympic long jump - as part of his career tally of nine Olympic gold medals - and his training partner, Joe De Loach, won the 200m in Seoul. Lewis's lawyer, Martin Singer, has responded to the revelations by saying his client had taken only a herbal remedy. "Carl did nothing wrong," Mr Singer told The Orange County Register. "There was never intent." The latest documents show Lewis tested positive for the banned stimulants found in cold medications: pseudoephedrine, ephedrine and phenylpropanolamine. The World Anti-Doping Agency's chairman, Dick Pound, dismissed the "no intent" defence. Mr Pound has seen copies of the documents and said that in some instances there was almost "automatic forgiveness" by the US officials. Letters written by a US Olympic Committee executive, Baaron Pittenger, were sent advising some athletes of their positive drug-test results - and at the same time told them they were being cleared. "It's got to be pretty embarrassing to the USOC," said Mr Pound, "to have their secretary-general writing in the letter, where he advises an athlete of a positive A sample, 'I have to send you this, but we already decided this was inadvertent.' That whole process turned into a joke." Dr Exum, the former USOC director for drug control from 1991 to 2000, released more than 30,000 pages of documents to Sports Illustrated. They confirm widespread suspicion of the USOC drug-testing system before it was moved to an independent body, the US Anti Doping Agency, after the Sydney Olympics. The Herald reported last year that a US athlete tested positive to steroids in 1999 but was allowed to compete - and win an Olympic gold medal - in the 2000 Sydney Games. US officials still refuse to divulge the name of the athlete, or those of 13 other athletes who had failed drug tests around the same time, citing privacy laws. In the Seoul 100m, Britain's Linford Christie was elevated from third to second after Johnson was disqualified. In later years, Christie was banned for using steroids. The International Olympic Committee's medical commission chairman, Arne Ljungqvist, said the Exum documents "fit a pattern" of failure to report on positive drug cases. But the USOC called Dr Exum's accusations "baseless". Dr Exum said there were more than 100 positive tests for US athletes who won 19 Olympic medals between 1988 and 2000, but many were allowed to keep competing.
Just to add to the discussion, here is a Time magazine article from 2004 that discusses China's Olympic strategy. Very enlightening. A few choice quotes: I don't think I have to make any further comment.
It looks like this thread has turned into another bash the PRC thread, I guess it always was, except now focussing on the evils of the PRC government exploiting young children for athletic glory. I will agree that its not a good thing to force young kids to become athletic machines and I don't doubt that this is something that the PRC, along with a few other countries, do. That given I'm not sure that our culture is necessarily better in this regard and while the PRC does it as governmental policy it seems too often here in the US we do this as cultural policy. Consider how many athletic crazed parents there are out there that also make sports the focus of their lives and will do all sorts of things like moving or even sending them away from home to train with a prominent sports program. Consider also too how there are many kids who look to sports as being their ticket to success to the detriment of other things like academics. For that matter consider how often sports crazed schools whether high school or college not only tolerates lax academics but even encourages such things among athletes. There is a key difference in terms of that one is done by the national government and the other is a collective choice among parents, kids, schools and boosters but in both the results are often the same where kids are exploited by chasing the elusive dream of athletic glory. In the end it is a matter that both culture's US and PRC place an inordinate value on athletic achievement and both express it in their own ways.
His suit - which was really about his claims of racial discrimination and NOT doping - was partially dismissed in 2003. I'm still tracking down whether or not the remainder of the suit went to trial. http://espn.go.com/oly/news/2003/0408/1536103.html
Unfortunately these kids of poor farmers did not have a lot of choices to get out of rural poverty. In fact, many parents are thrilled that their kids could enter such high-level professional sports academies. There are many perks like free education, stipend, employment opportunities after retirement, and if lucky, glory as national/world champions. Their career path is likely much more brighter than otherwise. It is not easy to get into these professional academy though. Some of my classmates who wanted to have career in sports had to pay high tuition for their training in local sports school, and only extrodinary ones can be picked up by professional sports academies at older ages (> 10).
In China the choice resides in the parents, but sports academy scouts are usually very good at convincing the parents to release their kids for "better future". As you know, only rare talents can be picked up by professional academies, which pays everything for their training and education.
