I agree with Brian Kagy's long post in this thread. Very well thought out. Timing, I don't think that reparations are the answer. It's more important to look towards the future and how one could improve race relations.
Originally posted by BrianKagy For exactly that reason. In your opinion, who made more civil rights progress-- Martin Luther King, Jr., or the Black Panthers? If you choose the latter, please list specific ways in which you think they aided the advancement of civil rights. There are quite a few former members of the 60s leftist vanguard that will place a great deal of the blame for the death of populist progressivism on the Panthers' militant separatist rhetoric. I'm not equating reparations and the Black Panthers on intellectual or moral merit-- the analogy is strictly between the response each caused on the part of the white majority. I think whites are likely to respond to a concerted effort towards reparations the same way they did towards the Black Panthers-- with fear and resentment. This would cause a serious wound in race relations and I think it would ultimately be a setback in trying to achieve the goals of the black electorate. Reparations have precedence. Why did the white majority not act with fear and resentment towards previous instances? It's a double standard. Martin Luther King wasn't exactly treated well by the white majority so the acceptance angle is a bit curious. He was stalked by the FBI, received death threats constantly, and in the end was in fact murdered by a white man. We can have talk about reparations without being compared to militant separatists. That's a big problem I have. Are relatives of Holocaust victims militant separatists for getting reparations from Germany? Or is the white majority not threatened by Jews like they are people of color? We always seem to get back to the issue of how white people are affected instead of the issue of how black people can be compensated for the wrong of slavery. I've already listed the reasons I find reparations morally and intellectually abhorrent. More than anything else, though, this is a political issue. And as a political issue, it is a complete waste of time and effort. It is so far outside the mainstream of political ideas for the majority of Americans that I don't think it has any chance of ever being implemented. No matter how attractive the black vote is to politicians, the resulting increase would not be enough to offset the white votes that would be lost if a mainstream political candidate outside of a majority-black district were to endorse reparations. You have to ask yourself if you think this is the wisest way to expend the political capital of black Americans. If we think of political access as a board game, one in which it's only your turn once in a while, I think this would be a waste of black America's "turn". You're going to get Congress' ear, say "We want reparations for slavery", and roughly 500 members of the House and Senate are going to say, "Not a chance. Thanks for coming out." You can probably answer that by citing specific instances in the past in which politically unpopular ideas were discouraged because they had "no chance" of being turned into legislation. Fair enough, but unlike abolition or women's suffrage or any of the other examples, I don't believe that proponents of reparations have the moral high ground. They are attempting to cloak naked greed with an appeal to America's moral obligation. Seeking reparations for the kidnap and enslavement of your ancestors is naked greed? That's pretty far over the top IMHO. Monetary damages are sought in our legal system all the time, I find it troubling that you would see this any differently. I doubt that reparations could become a serious issue now with the state of our economy and our seemingly never ending war on terrorism, not to mention our President Simple George. One day it should become a serious issue however and it will take a President with a vision that doesn't involve constantly saving his own ass. Along the way maybe we could educate America on how big the wealth gap really is between blacks and whites and that yes slavery actually did happen, it's not a casual excuse as some people seem to think. Perhaps some eyes need to be opened to the factual economic reality of today in order to be more accepting of reparations. The problem, as I see it, is that the majority of Americans consider their moral obligation to the ancestors of slaves as having already been fulfilled through the Civil War and the trillions of dollars spent on anti-poverty and (so-called) anti-discrimination programs that largely benefited black Americans. Since we can't post images any longer I'll leave this link which I've used previously. Even with the civil rights movement the data shows that blacks are not closing the wealth gap. All that the civil rights movement has accomplished in these terms is to keep the gap from widening. However, there should be a distinction drawn between slavery and racism which the detractors here don't seem to want to draw. Anti-discrimination programs today don't do anything to provide justice for slavery, that type of program simply attempts to level the current playing field. I don't find it completely necessary to use the wealth gap as reasons for reparations, I actually feel slavery in itself is reason enough however others may find it persuasive and may allow it to be an additional justification. http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/income00/incxrace.html
Timing, I'll agree with you that there is a wealth gap. But the fact that some people of the black race have been able to be extremely successful leads me to believe that all of them are capable. They may not have the same education or income, but they can do it. And if you're going to argue that more blacks are poor and have to try harder, then that's very racist too. There are many white families who are just as poor and have to try just as had to get ahead in life (although I know the number is smaller than blacks, but it's naive to think they are the only ones who have hardships). Kagy's posts about reparations are great and do sound very well thought out. The only thing I can say about giving reparations to the Japanese and the Jews after WWII is that it was a very different time period than when slavery ended. I'm sure the government of that time thought that fighting the Civil War and ending slavery were good enough at the time. Modern society is very different. Human rights are a real issue today, which they weren't at the time of slavery. And most of the Jews and Japanese receiving reparations were still alive to recieve them. I don't think reparations are the way to get justice for slavery at all. How can money bring justice? There's no amount of money that could pay for slavery. And having to pay for slavery will NOT slove racism, but probably make it worse.
Any thread that has the word "race" in it is destined to get at least 300 posts from Timing and 300 posts from Princess...
Hey this isn't my thread man! Someone compared David Duke to Jesse Jackson and another person said reparations were never demanded by other people. If no one else is going to correct those obvious errors then I guess I hafta jump in or somethin.
Originally posted by Princess Timing, I'll agree with you that there is a wealth gap. But the fact that some people of the black race have been able to be extremely successful leads me to believe that all of them are capable. They may not have the same education or income, but they can do it. What does this have to do with the crime of slavery? If the US government violated your civil rights to a disgusting degree would you pass on your rights to sue them in civil court because you're still capable of being successful? That's stupid. And if you're going to argue that more blacks are poor and have to try harder, then that's very racist too. Don't make me go find the quote where you said you know blacks have it tougher so they just have to try harder. Still has nothing to do with compensation for slavery. There are many white families who are just as poor and have to try just as had to get ahead in life (although I know the number is smaller than blacks, but it's naive to think they are the only ones who have hardships). Nothing to do with slavery here unless you're going to claim white families were kidnapped and enslaved right next to black families. The only thing I can say about giving reparations to the Japanese and the Jews after WWII is that it was a very different time period than when slavery ended. I'm sure the government of that time thought that fighting the Civil War and ending slavery were good enough at the time. Modern society is very different. Human rights are a real issue today, which they weren't at the time of slavery. And most of the Jews and Japanese receiving reparations were still alive to recieve them. There is no statute of limitations on kidnap and murder. Modern society my ass. I don't think reparations are the way to get justice for slavery at all. How can money bring justice? There's no amount of money that could pay for slavery. And having to pay for slavery will NOT slove racism, but probably make it worse. Your stance on the life of black America has been abundantly clear. You see no problems that can't be solved with a little hard work. Thanks for your insights. How can money bring justice? How does it bring justice to the thousands of people every year who win monetary judgements in civil court? I guess our society and our system of laws has in fact found that money does bring about a measure of justice. Even for the families of dead victims.
Timing: My claims about people being successful have to do with the crime of slavery because of everything you have said. You said that slavery is still today keeping black people from making anything of themselves. Well, if that were true, we wouldn't not have any successful black people today, now would we? Blacks do have to work harder in society to be successful and you'll argue that that is a result of slavery (which I won't argue with). However, just because they have it hard today does not mean they deserve reparations. The fact that some white families have it just as hard, or harder than some black families is another reason against reparations. Again, you say that black people deserve money because the affects of slavery are still felt today (which is true). However, it doesn't mean that all black people have it bad and all white people have it good or better. We already pay money to poor people. It's called welfare. I never said there was a statute of limitations, now did I? All I said was that it was a different time period back then. The war was fought because some believed it was bad but others thought it was good and a way of life (and many of those who thought it was unfair still thought it was necessary). Why would they have apologized for something they didn't see as totally bad? The government today didn't have anything to do with slavery. Neither did any of the public living today. It would be impossible to trace every single person in America back to the slavery days. My ancestors were not here. They did not own slaves. Why should I pay a dime? And not all slaves were murdered or beaten. How can we distinguish between the those who were and were not? As for money bringing justice, I never said it does. I don't think it brings justice in the case of slavery and I don't think it brings justice in any other case. I think it's ridiculous that anyone can sue anyone for something dumb and get millions of dollars out of it. Our judicial system has been abused by people trying to blame others for their lot in life. Black people, by asking for reparations are blaming whites for their lot in life and it's not our fault entirely. I have done absolutely nothing to hinder someone else from succeeding in this world. I had problems in my life, just as everyone else does. Some have less and some have more. You deal with what you have and move on. How can you think money will make everything better? Some of the unhappiest people I know are millionaires or billionaires living in Sweetwater or River Oaks (I know some very happy ones too, but I'm just showing that money does not make things right). I know one family who is so scared of their money, they never do anything. They don't buy anything too fancy because they don't want people to know they have money. I know other families where the mother is an alcoholic because she doesn't have anything to do all day and the father is an alcoholic because he is so stressed making his millions all day everyday and he works 80 hour weeks. The issue of reparations has never been a race issue for me. It has been just like any lawsuit where someone is trying to blame someone else for their problems. That is my biggest problem with people in general. They won't take responsibility for their own lives. And I'm confused. You're talking about reparations and apologies from the government. Which one do you want? If they apologize and give no money, would that be enough for you (although I think I know the answer already)?
If you want to talk about kidnapping and making amends for that, then I think that you are barking up the wrong tree. Many of the Africans sold into slavery were kidnapped by other Africans. I think that you need to redirect your demands to the Africans who kidnapped the slaves and the Spanish who killed them in transit. Were I kidnapped, btw, I would want to be returned to my home and I would want the people who did it to be imprisoned. Since all of the people involved in the slave trade are dead, that brings us right back to my original idea, now doesn't it?
I agree, you are very confused. My claims about people being successful have to do with the crime of slavery because of everything you have said. You said that slavery is still today keeping black people from making anything of themselves. I have not drawn a direct link here between slavery and black people being able to make something of themselves. It is a factor in America but it's far too complex to say A resulted in B. You again are not drawing a distinction between slavery and racism. Try to do so. Reparations are sought for slavery, not for present day racism. Blacks do have to work harder in society to be successful and you'll argue that that is a result of slavery (which I won't argue with). And if you're going to argue that more blacks are poor and have to try harder, then that's very racist too. It's pretty funny how you constantly contradict yourself post after post after post. So are you now racist for saying blacks do work harder to be successful or are you so confused you don't know what you're saying now? However, just because they have it hard today does not mean they deserve reparations. No civil cases are dismissed because the victim doesn't have it hard enough. A crime is still that no matter who the victim is and how successful they are. We don't dismiss a carjacking because the guy was a billionaire and can afford another car so it doesn't really hurt him that much. The fact that some white families have it just as hard, or harder than some black families is another reason against reparations. How so? What white families have it just as hard because they were slaves? Reparations for slavery, not for having it hard. Can you grasp that? Again, you say that black people deserve money because the affects of slavery are still felt today (which is true). However, it doesn't mean that all black people have it bad and all white people have it good or better. We already pay money to poor people. It's called welfare. WTF does welfare have to do with reparations for slavery? Black people deserve reparations because they have been terribly affected by it and there is precedence. I never said there was a statute of limitations, now did I? All I said was that it was a different time period back then. WTF does it matter the time? We're a more moral people now so we're just going to ignore it because that was then and this is now and it's not our problem? Nice! Why would they have apologized for something they didn't see as totally bad? An apology and a buck could get you a long distance phone call. Whipdeedoo. The government today didn't have anything to do with slavery. The government today is the same government from 200 years ago. Let me know if we weren't the United States back then, I might have missed that. BTW, the German government today didn't have anything to do with the Holocaust and they sure as hell aren't the Third Reich so why do they pay reparations? Hmmmm... And not all slaves were murdered or beaten. How can we distinguish between the those who were and were not? You're right, the only slaves that should get reparations are the ones who were beaten and killed. It was impossible to send a man to the moon a while back but I guess we pulled that one off. Saying it's impossible without even addressing it is not good enough. As for money bringing justice, I never said it does. I don't think it brings justice in the case of slavery and I don't think it brings justice in any other case. You're quite clearly far, far in the minority in your opinion. I think it's ridiculous that anyone can sue anyone for something dumb and get millions of dollars out of it. Is slavery something dumb? Our judicial system has been abused by people trying to blame others for their lot in life. More like people getting justice for the wrongs committed against them. For cigarette companies lying to smokers, for Dow Corning lying to women over breast implants, etc. I guess according to your perfect world nobody would have any recourse other than to become violent and go kill someone. Black people, by asking for reparations are blaming whites for their lot in life and it's not our fault entirely. Who the **** should they blame the friggin Easter Bunny?!?! White people enslaved black people in this country, this is reality. Reparations aren't sought for their lot in life but rather the crime of slavery committed against them. I have done absolutely nothing to hinder someone else from succeeding in this world. I had problems in my life, just as everyone else does. Some have less and some have more. You deal with what you have and move on. Excuse me but slavery isn't a problem in someone's life. You're talking apples and Jupiter here. How can you think money will make everything better? Where did I say money will make everything better? BTW your example of millionaires and billionaires living in Sweetwater is friggin comical. There are millions of people who wish they had the luxury of being unhappy millionaires. The issue of reparations has never been a race issue for me. It has been just like any lawsuit where someone is trying to blame someone else for their problems. That is my biggest problem with people in general. They won't take responsibility for their own lives. You're so right. When someone is kidnapped and enslaved they should just not blame anyone and take responsibility for their own life. If someone kills your parents, hell just get on with your life. Damn slaves... Hey I got one, why don't all Americans take responsibility for our government's past condoned enslavement of blacks. That's right in line with your whole take responsibility preaching stuff but somehow probably doesn't fit into your agenda.
Originally posted by Hydra If you want to talk about kidnapping and making amends for that, then I think that you are barking up the wrong tree. Many of the Africans sold into slavery were kidnapped by other Africans. I think that you need to redirect your demands to the Africans who kidnapped the slaves and the Spanish who killed them in transit. Wow that is a great post Hydra. I guess I can set up a kidnapping racket where I let someone know I'm willing to pay for slaves and then they kidnap them and sell them to me. That definitely would not make me an accessory to kidnapping and murder. WTF did you pick this up? Would you really tell the cops, sorry I didn't actually kidnap them. I bought them from the actual kidnappers, transported them to my house and even though many died an excruciating disgusting death on the way I keep the rest here to work as slaves. That's fresh!
Timing, thanks for sticking with the thread. I am cool with logical deliberation of race issues from multiple perspectives, but some of the responses to your posts didn't reflect that, or much clear thinking in general. It is good somebody is checking this stuff even if sometimes it is tedious for you.
Who is contradicting themself now? This is why I have made such a big deal out of reparations paying for a person's lot in life, because you said that was a reason. Do you think that white Americans who are descendents of white slaves should get reparations as well? I you don't, then you're arguing that it is to pay for their lot in life, so you're contradicting yourself. A crime is a crime. Traditionally in Ameica, we have put people through the justice system and made a decision about it. Traditionally, we don't pay people off. Give me proof of my opinions of reparations not bringing justice for slavery being in the minority. A lagre part of white people are against it and I have even heard many black people speak out against it as well. Reparations will further racism and prejudice. It will piss a lot of people off to have to pay for something they had nothing to do with. So you don't care if the government admits that it was wrong about slavery, you just want the money. Nice Again about the Germans, the people involved in the Holocaust are still alive today. They are getting money for it (which I don't agree with either-money does not pay for suffering, IMO). No one today was involved in slavery yet they still want money for it. And if you argue that they deserve it because they are "affected by" slavery, then I say to see my previous statements about a person being responsible for their own life. Why are you so against people being responsible for themselves? People can sue over the cigarette companies or Dow lying because they were wrongfully informed. I'm talking about a guy carrying a 32" TV up a ladder, falling and injuring himself and suing the ladder company for making unsafe ladders. Wake up, read the instructions and have a clue! (By the way, this is a specific case and the guy won millions). Anyway, you can't compare reparations for slavery to people being lied to and suing for it. The scenarios are too different. If my parents were murdered, I would want justice. I would want that person to be tried and convicted and to rot in prison for a substantial amount of time. No money. money would not fix it. I could say "my dad makes $100,000/year, so I should get all the money he would have made" and sue for it. However, I have never received a dime from my dad, so why should I now? And who can say he would have kept his job and salary? He could die of a heart attack the next day. Why should I get or even ask for money? It's the wrong approach. The government should take responsibility for slavery. And they have. They admitted it was wrong and fought a war over it. Sorry that's not enough for you. Why don't they ask for reparations from the British who enslaved them first? Or the blacks who captured, beat, and sold them? Why aren't they thankful they live in America today, where there is more freedom and opportunity than anywhere else? As far as Hyrda's post goes, I wouldn't tell them I did it. I was only part of it and should only be tried for the part I was involved with. If I did not kidnap the person, I should not be acused of it. I would be charged with something else in that case. And I would be tried and convicted, not forced to pay for it. (and the slave trade was going on in Africa before Americans were willing to buy them, so don't act like we caused the natives of Africa to involve themselves in it. They did it first and had a choice in it)
Originally posted by Princess Who is contradicting themself now? This is why I have made such a big deal out of reparations paying for a person's lot in life, because you said that was a reason. Blacks are impacted, blacks have been affected, and yet some are still successful. This does not suddenly wipe away the cummulative impact of slavery on black America. Nowhere have I said that some people can't be successful despite slavery. Get over yourself. Do you think that white Americans who are descendents of white slaves should get reparations as well? I you don't, then you're arguing that it is to pay for their lot in life, so you're contradicting yourself. There is no history of white slavery in this country so my priorities for reparations for whites in some far off country are pretty low. I'm an American, not a UN representative. I'll take care of my own backyard before I go running around the world. A crime is a crime. Traditionally in Ameica, we have put people through the justice system and made a decision about it. Traditionally, we don't pay people off. Obviously you don't know what the hell you're talking about. People are paid off every day and everywhere. Give me proof of my opinions of reparations not bringing justice for slavery being in the minority. A lagre part of white people are against it and I have even heard many black people speak out against it as well. As for money bringing justice, I never said it does. I don't think it brings justice in the case of slavery and I don't think it brings justice in any other case. You said money does not bring about justice. If US case law means anything then you're completely wrong and you are in fact completely wrong so your opinion means diddly squat on the matter. Reparations will further racism and prejudice. It will piss a lot of people off to have to pay for something they had nothing to do with. Boohoo... more pissed off racists. What ever will we do? You know I think you've made the cummulative argument here on this board that anything that can be done to assist black America will further racism and prejudice. You're so sweet! So you don't care if the government admits that it was wrong about slavery, you just want the money. Nice. I think it's been abudantly clear that I do in fact care while you in fact do not. You've been pretty clear on this on every issue involving racism on this board from day 1. I'm Hispanic, not black so I'm not getting a damn thing other than the satisfaction that justice has finally been done to some small degree. Again about the Germans, the people involved in the Holocaust are still alive today. They are getting money for it (which I don't agree with either-money does not pay for suffering, IMO). Again what does this have to do with anything? The US did not give reparations 150 years ago so we can't do it now because all slaves are dead? WTF is that? Money does pay for suffering, it's a common practice in law today... you apparently haven't noticed. No one today was involved in slavery yet they still want money for it. And if you argue that they deserve it because they are "affected by" slavery, then I say to see my previous statements about a person being responsible for their own life. Why are you so against people being responsible for themselves? Why are you so against being held responsible for the actions of your government? You're so far off in left field with this responsibility argument that it's absurd. People, companies, and government can and are in fact held financially responsible for the damage they do. This is a fact and whether you agree with it or not doesn't really matter. People can sue over the cigarette companies or Dow lying because they were wrongfully informed. So what is slavery? Wrongfully friggin enslaved I'd think. I'm talking about a guy carrying a 32" TV up a ladder, falling and injuring himself and suing the ladder company for making unsafe ladders. Wake up, read the instructions and have a clue! And this has what to do with slavery? Anyway, you can't compare reparations for slavery to people being lied to and suing for it. The scenarios are too different. Yeah, slavery is about a billion times more heinous and disgusting than being lied to. You'd think you'd figure that out about now. Why don't we just save the apologies for the smokers and give the money to the descendants of slaves? Sounds fine with me. Smokers at least were making a choice to begin smoking, even if an uninformed choice. The government should take responsibility for slavery. And they have. They admitted it was wrong and fought a war over it. Sorry that's not enough for you. Freeing the slaves isn't friggin enough, that is what was simply right. You want points for doing the right thing? This isn't kindergarten. Doing the right thing is what you're SUPPOSED to do. Why don't they ask for reparations from the British who enslaved them first? Or the blacks who captured, beat, and sold them? I tell you what we'll start with the big bank accounts with the US then we'll move on to England and then we'll try to find those very wealthy west African tribes that I hear about all the time. Why aren't they thankful they live in America today, where there is more freedom and opportunity than anywhere else? Um, because they were enslaved, discriminated against, disenfranchised, and have to listen to people like you telling them that they just need to take responsibility for their lives? As far as Hyrda's post goes, I wouldn't tell them I did it. I was only part of it and should only be tried for the part I was involved with. If I did not kidnap the person, I should not be acused of it. I would be charged with something else in that case. And I would be tried and convicted, not forced to pay for it. (and the slave trade was going on in Africa before Americans were willing to buy them, so don't act like we caused the natives of Africa to involve themselves in it. They did it first and had a choice in it) Oh Christ... fine we'll only try America for the crime of slavery and participating in a conspiracy to kidnap and murder. I think that will be enough.
If Euros and Americans had not wanted slaves, would the stronger/nastier Africans (most seem to have been the Islamic North Africans, so they were not even dealing with their own people, since most of the slaves came from the lower and West coast regions) have adapted to survive in the slave-hungry world by acting as slave brokers themselves?
