Point guard? Ander Miller is a better POINT GUARD hands down. All around player? Tough call but I'd give the edge to Steve.
I think Steve is closer to a francshie player. Although I think they can co-exist on the same team, just like Gary Payton and Jason Kidd.
Steve doesn't make anyone around him better. That basically is the definition (mine at least) of a franchise player.
steve doesn't make anyone around him better? he makes the whole damn team better. ie: cato is nothing without him offensively. who is andre miller making better? the answer is nobody because that team still sucks and he's been healthy. andre is a great point guard but something like what steve did in the third tonight, miller cannot do.
No kidding. Who the hell is Andre Miller making better? Maybe Kidrock should explain how a player goes about making his teammates better, cause this is something I've been having trouble understanding.
Lamond Murray. Wesley Person. Both players are having pretty good seasons. If they(the Cavs) had a legitimate inside presence, they'd be a threat in the East.
I already admitted he makes Cato better. If you consider Cato to being "the whole damn team" then you really don't have much of a point at all. Miller gets 11 dimes a game, surely he is helping someone. Cavs have no go-to guys, unless you count Miller as one.
lamond murray and wesley person have always been more than just average players. they are both, especially person, excellent jumpshooters. i don't believe miller has made them any better at all. He certainly makes the team better because he's an all-star talent but for a particular individual what is he doing over there that steve couldn't do. i'm not talking about the team but the individuals. of course they'd be good with a legitimate inside threat, but really who wouldn't? how bout putting an inside threat with steve and seeing what happens. i think winning games is a result of making your teammates better and so far the cavs have stunk it up in each of his 3 years.
kidrock- based on our offense, i'd say he does make the whole team better. here's cat as another example. mobley's game clearly suffers more when steve is out. steve takes pressure off of mobley to create his own shot and mobley thrives when steve creates the shot for him. i don't base how good you make your teammates by assists. i think alot of people can agree that jordan is probably the best at making people around him better, yet he wasn't ever gonna lead the league in assists. what steve does is build confidence in the team and when he's in there i think it gives the team more push.
\ What players do Shaq and Kobe make better on the Lakers? Murray and Person are good jump shooters. They stand at a spot, Miller finds him. It's easy to get assists that way.
that's a horrible argument. i'm not gonna break down who they can and can't start for but how would coming off the bench make them below average? both kt and eddie griffin wouldn't start for most teams, are they below average?
Rickey Davis and Jumaine Jones. Miller makes both of them better. The only problem is that the rest of the team SUCKS. I agree with the statement that Miller is a better PG but Francis is the better overall player.
And this one: http://bbs.clutchcity.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30024 that was started by Nikos as well.
-that's a horrible argument. i'm not gonna break down who they can and can't start for but how would coming off the bench make them below average? both kt and eddie griffin wouldn't start for most teams, are they below average? Average of what? Starting at their positions. Or as backups. At this moment they are not top 13 at their position. If they are considered starters thus they would be below average. As backups maybe top 13 of backups or above average.
Davis is a heckuva an athlete, in the Eddie Robinson/ Francis class. Jumaine impressed me at Philly. Jones/Davis is every bit as athletic as anyone on our rosterl, before some of you say that is irrelevant, you do get assists via alley oops, etc. Murray and Person are both good shooters who know their role. Actually, I think Murray can drive as well.
