What If We Kicked All Illegal Aliens Out of the US...

Temporary? How can they be overcome? Robots?

I'm assuming that the people halfbreed mentioned didn't need to, either way, they can still wait, that's a luxury the others don't have.

Not officially, but they are de-facto citizens, I mean, they do everything a normal citizen would do, just not as comfortably.

Yes it is, it's been proven in many studies that it is almost impossible for most to learn a new language as an adult -in fact, past the age of 12-, especially if the person trying to learn is semi-literate in their own language.

You still haven't given any necessary incentives to learn it either, like I said, you can live here and communicate with everyone you need to communicate with in Spanish.

The only real incentive to learn English is money; if you know English you can do business with more Americans, but the more ambitious and capable immigrants know that and they learn English, the ones who are content with whatever is available to them wont.

Right, more bourgeois talk. All it takes it is a little elbow grease for your country to be just like America, right? If someone or some country is poor, it's because they're not working hard enough, right?

I'm not absolving Mexico, a lot of their wounds are self-inflicted, but Mexico is obviously trying and they are getting some noticeable and positive results, they're just not growing at the rate necessary to make a significant difference, and anyday now they can go back to zero.

Of course not, I want every person in this country, no matter their nationality or legal status, to be treated equally, with respect and dignity.

I don't care about the industries or the companies, I don't even care about my own quality of life, I simply want people to see some of the realities of this issue, and some are these: immigrants are not illegal, because a law is not a law when it is not enforced, or as you pointed out, enforced sparingly just to placate people like ilovestrippers and Donkey Magic; if not open borders, a de-facto open labor market exists in the U.S. which welcomes everyone and makes it possible for immigrants to not just work, but live here as well, albeit very uncomfortably; inequality between any two countries is the greatest and strongest pull factor of illegal-immigration -a universal truth; richer countries always attract the citizens of poorer countries, and the richer countries, with varying degrees of xenophobia, will accept those foreigners; immigration, and the cheap labor and specifically the population growth it brings with it, is a very strong, maybe even the #1 economic growth stimulator in consumeristic countries, in the end, that's the #1 reason why immigration laws in America are ignored and why periodic amnesties are given and expected; and finally, immigration in this form hurts the poor immigrants and the poor Americans.

 

Edited-

I have some interesting experience in this issue, as I deal with many employees with legal papers and have had to deal with many without.

On balance there is a desparation factor at times, but my own opinion is that it is not that often the case. Some Mexicans I know are very content to live a less affluent life in Mexico, it is what they know. I think many are coaxed into coming by traffikers who profit for getting them to come across.

I know a couple of people who are pretty well off in Mexico and live here simply because they have extended their business interests. And yes, they are illegal. One of them owns a huge ranch outside Monterey .

There are some balancing points to this issue I have tried to understand from my own experiences on this issue. It has helped me see more of the complexity of immigration from Mexico. And in know way do I mean this to be grounds for any harsh treatment or response to those who are working in the US illegally by current law. I favor assimilation into our society.

In 1975 I was working as a homebuilder. Built about 1000 homes Houston, Austin, Galveston and Lake Jackson.

Work crews started showing up from Mexico around 1977 in most every basic trade- framing, masonry, foundations, painting, cabinets, flooring, sheetrock, everything except the trades that required license (electric plumbing A/C)

Most of the crews had a Spanish speaking US citizen leading or at least handling them.

They did not come in as cheap labor they came in just a small % lower in cost. So instead of charging $1.25/sq. ft. to frame the house these crews charged $1.15

The net result was that there was a small bidding war but eventually the illegal crews took over most of the construction at least in the areas where we built homes.

I personally believe these crews were being exploited by the people bringing them in. But they displaced most all the crews. I know for a fact that many families were hurt, men lost their jobs and had to go north to find work. I saw many good people hurt by this. I really look back and see people here were exploiting people in Mexico and profitting by convincing them to come over and exploiting them. The reason I believed this was because I hired two carpenters who were brought over and they were talked into coming with huge promises of $$$ that never materialized.

It was sad. I knew many crews who had worked building houses for over 15 years for us within a few months were out of work and not able to find anything else in their field.

That is only one instance but it was a balancing viewpoint to me and I am 1/2 Mexican with relatives in Mexico.

I have been to garbage dumps and shanty towns in Mexico where the poverty is deplorable. People live in card board boxes and have nothing. I work with an orphanage in Mexico regularly, but the saddest part is in my limited experience these people who are the most desparate typically don't get the opportunity to come over the border.

People have to pay a traffiker often to make it across. The poorest don't have the resources.

It is sad but there is definately exploitation going on the Mexican side.

Those who just decide to up and leave for a better life are few in my own experience. Most who do that have someone already here and they are just trying to join them.

That is only a small slice of the issue, I don't mean it to be representative.

Just adding some balance to how I have come to see the situation.

I really believe that future immigration must be changed. The laws must be changed and it should include a compassionate response to the neediest peoples and not judge those who are working hard in the US.

 

is there anything worse than immigrants who get all uppity? god.

im sure given your immigrant background you probably went to a not so great school and failed to learn proper american history. and im sure people you tend to agree with and thus vote for probably continue this discrimination for poor folks at schools. but for a significant duration in this country a huge percentage of people spoke languages other than english. in fact more than 5% of kids were actually educated in german until wwI. ever heard of fredericksburg?

the US doesn't have an official language. and obviously people who don't speak english in america are at a great disadvantage. but you're disdain and visceral hate for them is disturbing and a little out of touch with the history of america.

 

This is why I am so hardline about immigration laws. Nothing has changed in those 30 years. U.S. citizens and legal immigrants are displaced in the job market by this cheap, often abused labor force. Then we wonder why our manufacturing / blue collar base is shrinking by the day

 

I didn't mean to say the immigrants weren't in need and trying to better themselves, just that I have seen them exploited by profiteers.

I do think they want to come here for a better life, but I have seen them abused in a sense by people going and recruiting them for profit.

I don't blame the immigrant, I believe many are made to think they are doing what is right. I think alot is not known about how much exploitation is taking place.

I knew a sheetrock contractor that went to get his 'crews' and paid his crew very little yet he charged the same wage as everyone else.

I knew a concrete contractor who told me he did it that way, he paid them $10 a day cash and all the beer they could drink after work. And he was charging a market price for his foundations.

The fellow I helped get his papers was being paid $25.00 a day to clean up houses post construction. He worked hard sometimes 10 hours a day, he had to provide his own transportation to the jobsite and he was paid $25 cash.

That is exploitation.

 

And I can't speak to what has happened over the last 30 years except from where I work now.

We are an office furniture dealership. There is a small pool of skilled workers who can do installation and most of them come from the Hispanic community.

There are not many people that can do these installations and we are always needing to hire. We have signs on our truck fleet- Now Hiring.

There are alot of sides to this issue. I look at alot of SS cards when I hire and I don't ask if they are real or fakes.

 

I knew a concrete contractor who told me he did it that way, he paid them $10 a day cash and all the beer they could drink after work. And he was charging a market price for his foundations.

The fellow I helped get his papers was being paid $25.00 a day to clean up houses post construction. He worked hard sometimes 10 hours a day, he had to provide his own transportation to the jobsite and he was paid $25 cash.

That is exploitation.








¿I thought they are just doing the jobs that Americans wont?

 

That is why I get so upset about our immigration laws. You see, I am half Hispanic. My father was more articulate in Spanish than English, but he was proud of his citizenship and his heritage.

There are lots of posters out there who think I'm unsympathetic to Hispanics and other immigrants. Nothing could be further from the truth. I see people who give lip service to the "poor and oppressed undocumented workers." However, peel off the veneer and their real objective is cheap labor for bigger profits on the business end and lower prices on the consumer end -- all at the expense of some poor, exploited souls.

We can bring our economy into equilibrium if we provide citizenship for people who apply for it using legal means and keeping out the people who don't. This gives immigrants a chance at a new life without draining the U.S. treasury and, using the criteria from my earlier post, keeps out the criminal element threatening our very safety.

 

I am not defending the present laws or situations.

I do not think illegal immigrants should be punished.

I have just had experiences that make me see the situation more complex than they are just trying to avoid starvation or they are just trying to rob Americans of the best jobs.

They are doing jobs that most of us cannot afford to do, simply because those jobs do not pay enough.

Just like MadMax said there are many working in the food service industry for low wages.

They preform many labor intensive jobs all over the state of TX especially in agriculture.

They are exploited in my opinion on both sides of the border.

I personally think we could absorb those who are here working into our economy and come up with a legal system for immigration that would be less
abusive.

I just believe the legal side of this issue needs to be fixed, whatever the effect on the economy.

We should have an immigration policy that reflects benefit to the immigrant and this country.

Why is it so hard to find the right solution to problems?

I am not against illegal immigrants, I am here today because of one.

 

Fine with that..as long as:

1. we're offering up amnesty for those here;

2. we make it easier and less costly for people to apply for citizenship or residence status

 

how the hell that's consider a racist??

that word's been used just a bit too loosely

 

Wasn't Amnesty Tried already in 1986? [Reagan Era]
How did that work out?
Do we have more or less illegal immigrants?

Rocket River

 

free market pressures, duh. It seems like the answer to everything else no?

weak.

...except not.

why do i need to provide incentives?

learn some mexican history. that place is incredibly corrupt. their political culture is incredibly biased against the have-nots. sure, they've made some nominal changes in the past decade, but it's not nearly enough and it hasn't really made a dent in anything.

except when it comes to breaking the law, right? you realize that the only way that these illegal immigrants will be treated equally is if they become nationalized, i.e. amnesty. But see, that won't even deal with the illegal immigration issue because no employer is going to hire a mexican for the minimum wage when they can send recruiters over to mexico to bring in illegals that will be making FAR LESS than the minimum wage. Hell, they even have to get here with their own resources.

that's the worst justification i've ever heard. so it's not a crime if you get away with it?

O
M
G

 

No, I am opposed to amnesty across the board. There are more than 30 million illegals in this country (I know the figure is officially 12 million but that is ridiculously low). If they come here using illegal means, then they can go back and apply or apply showing that they have employment credentials that are in need (skilled labor).

That's why I would impose severe fines on employers and landlords. There is no way to round up millions of illegals. If denied employment and housing, they will go home and return legally.


Wasn't Amnesty Tried already in 1986? [Reagan Era]
How did that work out?
Do we have more or fewer illegal immigrants?

Rocket River
RR again asks the key question, and we all know the answer.

 

1. Alot of crimes are done by DESPERATE PEOPLE - Drug Dealers . ..a bunch of starving teenagers with not money or means to make money . .. DESPERATE PEOPLE but I don't see anyone offering forgiveness for them . . . .

2. I understand the issue of the Small Business Man. It is unfortunate. I don't want to see them go under. However - would u advocate these owners breaking other laws . . . just to stay afloat? Say One Day old Milk .. or bread. . won't kill anyone but just against the law .. . .

3. then Change the law. NOW, we could all argue against arcane or unjust laws. Does that mean we should ignore them until they are changed? Are you *truly* Advocating this approach or is this a *sic* Isolate Situation?

How man *sic* Isolate situations happen before something is just a trend. . .a norm?

Rocket River

 

We ignore laws on the books because they're old and outdated all the time, RR. This isn't the only area where this happens. Laws are and always have been selectively enforced.

I draw sharp distinctions between people who are here looking for work and people selling drugs. If you don't, that's fine...but it's not my perspective.

Again..you're misunderstanding. These small businesses owners aren't breaking laws. They're hiring people who present documents. They turn those in to the federal government. They pay them the same wages they pay everyone else. They have a very limited labor supply.

 

Well, we don't have a deal then!

The problems that stemmed post-amnesty the last time weren't because of amnesty...they were because we didn't change the policy to deal with the future. I'm not suggesting we do that.

 

I think part of the frustration on these issues is that the programs tried over and over never solve the root problems.

Whether it is the war on drugs, poverty, immigration, jobs, healthcare... to me it seems that politicians get it wrong much more than right.

I took a class years ago called root cause analysis and it really opened my eyes to how important it is to find the exact root cause before you implement solutions.

Knee jerk reactions, political decisions, party politics, grandstanding, and spending money in 'my' district or state never really shows me genuine compassion.

I don't think illegal immigration is a threat to American jobs. At least not now.

I think it is an ideas issue. It's not that anyone posting has been displaced by an illegal immigrant; it's the fact that the system is broke and like many other systems when it is in the media it gets our attention.

So, instead of debating should illegal immigrants be shipped out, let's try to see the situation as it is and find a solution that respects people, shows compassion and reflects the changing resources we have to deal with immigration.

We may soon find unemployment climbing and that isn't going to ease the debate.

 

yeah, I have to say a lot of my opinion on this...or at least the emotion you "hear" in my posts on it...is a backlash to how i see this argument framed so often...and how I see people demonized. the whole, "my grandparents came here legally so you should too!!" isn't an apples to apples analogy given the way immigration policy has changed.

 

Again..you're misunderstanding. These small businesses owners aren't breaking laws. They're hiring people who present documents. They turn those in to the federal government. They pay them the same wages they pay everyone else. They have a very limited labor supply.





What bullcrap; Most do know who they are hiring. Would you hire someone for your small business who you suspected was an illegal Alien? I know I wouldn't. Of course they all claim they didn't know. You can;t be that naive. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070704122749AAD69K3