Your arguments are fine, but my problem is that you have 7 guys listed ahead of Jordan. Its fine that you think MJ is not the greatest of all time, but its crap when you list 7 guys in front of him. Its also garbage that you think Oscar is the better defender, passer, etc... How you can make such claims? Its great he averaged a triple double, but again, you should realize that those numbers are skewed because of the quality of players back in the days. I dont care what anyone says, but nobody is going to average those kinds of numbers in the NBA today.
Ok, by this sentence - "If you indeed have any legitimate arguments (and I don't doubt that you can make a case for multiple people for being the GOAT), this isn't it." - I didn't mean to say that Jordan is the best ever even if it sounds that way. What I meant to say is that LilStevie3 showed why your argument is not valid. And if you present an argument that is skewed, it raises suspicions about your objectivity (obviously all opinions are subjective but you know what I mean). Jordan is the best I've ever seen going both by what I've seen and by stats. Commenting on this list I can only go by stats and legacy when judging players that played prior to '96. If you think that at least 7 people are better, that's fine and your opinion in the matter I'm sure is more educated than mine but I second the thought that you can't compare players from totally different eras. As far as I'm concerned, the list is OK because Jordan is above the two other players that I've seen.
That's the main point I was trying to make too. I'm not arguing (nor am I going to) whether or not Jordan is the GOAT - he's entitled to his own opinion. I'm trying to point out that his tone w/ the "brain-dead media zombie", "DUH Jordan is GOD, LOLZ!!!", and the rolly eyes (when clearly there are numerous journalists and former players with the background that support Mike as the GOAT) obviously show a significant disdain for MJ that is sure to skew his view in the very same way other's love of MJ may skews their's.
1. I'll put Jordan at the top 2. Wilt 3. Oscar 4. Magic 5. Kareem 6. Hakeem 7. Russell 8. Bird 9. Shaq 10. Duncan
I love Hakeem, but you can't put Hakeem in front of Jordan, they played in the same era, Jordan's team beat the one team Hakeem's couldn't, the Sonics. You just can't do it. you just can't, its completely illogical. To me, you can argue Jordan/Magic/Kareem/Wilt/Russell. I know people don't like Russell but the 11 Rings count. That's your arguable top five, anyone can go first. People may not feel that way about Kareem, but when you add numbers and rings, he goes on that list. Everyone else, including Bird, is second tier.
Larry Bird is way too high on that list. I would take all of these players over Bird Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Duncan, Olajuwon, Kareem, Wilt, Jerry West
Kobe is not there yet. But he is already the 2nd best SG ever. Here's my attempt of top 15. 1. Jordan 2. Wilt 3. Kareem 4. Magic 5. Oscar Robertson 6. Bill Russel 7. Bird 8. Hakeem 9. Shaq 10. Duncan 11. Kobe 12. Jerry West 13. Dr. J 14. John Havlicek 15. Moses Malone
I agree except I think Magic and Bird are close, basicially second tier (fighting for #5 spot and lower). I cannot in good conscience have anyone other than those three centers ahead of Jordan--Jordan is clearly the best non-big ever IMO. I think Magic would agree too. Kareem, Wilt, Jordan and Russell all have arguments for the greatest basketball player of all time. Kareem I think typically is the one understimated of these 4. 9 championships (3-3 in college, 6 in the pros), all time scorer (and very efficient), all those MVPs/all-stars/1st teams, etc. He might lead in blocks too if they kept track when he started. I think around here (Rockets fans) too may people think of the 39 year old verson playing Hakeem/Sampson instead of the 25 year old version. He was a monster as a young guy, and it should be a testament he could hold his own in the late 30s, much better at that age than Hakeem or what Shaq/Duncan will be if they are still playing. To me it is probably Wilt, Kareem, Jordan than Russell as your top 4 basketball players of all time. But I understand the case for a different order.
Forget the fact Kobe hasn't been in the league long enough. Let's say that he has played long enough to qualify, what has he done to bump any of those guys out of the top 10? He was the second best player on 3 Championship teams. In his last Finals appearance he was horrible. He never made it out of the first round without Shaq until this season when he was given an All Star PF (to go along with the very, very talented PF/SF he already had). Currently, he is shooting a poor percentage and getting outplayed by a guy who wouldn't crack the all time top 75 of NBA players and who was not considered a current top 15 NBA player until a few weeks ago. He is going to lose in his first NBA Finals where he is the main guy (let's not forget his team was favored). The guy hasn't done $$$^@ except score 81 points in a regular season game. D. Robinson scored 71 so I guess he is the second best Center off All time and also deserving of mention on this list?
while i don't think kobe is top 10, this is ridiculous. like getting a near all-star PF should be held against him as if everyone else makes the finals with garbage on their team. once he got that PF, he pretty much cruised through the western conference, easily beating the defending champs, while being by far the best and most consistent player on the team. is he supposed to make the finals with smush parker and kwame brown to be good? even hakeem lost in the first round a bunch of times when he had scrubs. so did jordan. and his very, very talented SF and all-star PF aren't doing jack now that they're in the finals. and pierce (i assume that's the non-top 75 guy) isn't out playing him. even factoring in his D, his numbers don't match kobe's and he's getting to do it against the lakers D while kobe is having to get his against the celtics top 5 all-time defense. the only reason the lakers were favored is a) people get caught up in the hype and b) the celtics played like crap for 2 rounds (which they aren't doing any more). the team that won 66 games, had a 25-5 record against the west, and won the season series 2-0 should be favored by any reasonable analysis of the series.
I agree. Kobe is clearly better/outplaying Pierce. But assuming Kobe's doesn't play great in game 5 and 6 and they lose one of those, we should revist who the best player on the planet right now. It might be the guy who had the better statistical season in every mjor way and nearly knocked off the Celts with 45 in a close game 7. Lebron from game 3-7 was a monster in scoring and breaking down the Celts defense beyond what Kobe has done despite Kobe having a better team. Given what the Celts are doing to the Pistons and Lakers--the clear other best teams, maybe Lebron and the Cavs should get more credit for that series. I am not looking so stupid for saying it is a legitimate debate as to whether Kobe or Lebron is the games most dominant force. Of course I am sure the KBBLs are crying in their beers with like minded folks and wouldn't admit it even if they did happen to be around here.
Bird and Magic were considered equals. Bird was really THAT GOOD. Bird took the Rockets down twice in the Finals. you got give that guy some respect.
agree. here is one for you - bird or west or stockton or walton (or someone else)? who is the best white player?
it's close between bird and west. i never saw west player, but now what an awesome clutch player he was. there was no 3 point line back when he played, so who knows how many points he would have scored. i watched that 86 series against the Rockets. Bird's shot is so freaking pure and effortless and he knew when to shoot and when to pass. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/p_nfsq4pTpI&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/p_nfsq4pTpI&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
I think not. Really? Then why bother discussing it at all if it's so impossible? And the argument about eras goes both ways. There were fewer great players, but there were also around 10 teams back in the day instead of 30.
That's not a legitimate disqualification because Dream did beat the Sonics. He may have needed Barkley to do it, but Jordan needed Rodman to get past Shaq's Magic himself. Anyway, I'm more upset at Kareem perpetually upstaging Dream on these lists. Take away Earvin and Oscar and you have Karl Malone.
Their resumes are just not comparable. Kareem has as good of winning basketball resume (9 championships, loads of other honors) as anyone (Jordan, Russell), and had the next most dominant/impressive statistical season after Wilt (look at Kareem's early 70s numbers, and of course they didn't collect blocks then--why Hakeem is ahead of him on the block list). People forget Kareem was 39 when he faced Hakeem so Rocket fans have a very tainted image of Kareem. Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan were/are nothing at 39.
the guy played till the age of 42 and averaged 24 and 11 for a career. He's arguably the greatest college basketball player in history. In 86 at the age of 38/39 when he lost to hakeem, you know what he averaged that year, twenty freakin three points, thirty eight years old. His resume is unbelievable. The other nice thing about kareem, we get to measure him against some all time greats of all eras. dude played against wilt, reed, walton, hakeem, ewing, the list goes on and on.
I wonder how fondly Dream would be remembered if he got hurt prior to game seven of the '94 finals, and Sam Cassell started in his place and led the Rockets to victory in his absence. Kareem is a juggernaut on Celebrity Jeopardy though.
