A couple of things I want to add... I don't think faith or good works is the "way" to salvation. There is nothing a human can do to "earn" salvation. It is a gift given to us. We are called to have faith in God, and to live that faith, but niether of those things will save us. Only God can. In one of the other religion threads, someone mentioned being uncomfortable with the notion that God treats sin equally, whether you lied to your parents or are Adolph Hitler. I think you misunderstand true forgiveness. Jesus died for everyone. I, personally, would have a hard time forgiving some people. But, God is much stronger than we are. He loves us...the "keeps no record of wrongs" type of love. Once we are forgiven, we are forgiven. There is no grudge. As far as deathbed conversions, I don't know the true meaning of "every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess" but I think that leaves the door open for deathbed conversions. Again, I think God is able to forgive all because he has sacrificed for all. Its a tough concept for humans to understand, but easy for God. He can not love more and He will not love less.
BTW- it was alot of fun meeting you and talking Rockets with you and checking Yao's out. I missed the last trip you made to Houston, but would like to plan if you have another trip coming, so give us a heads up. Especially in the fall, would love to catch a BB gave w/ you.
Personally, I have a hard time believing that the God described in the Bible would condemn any person.
Josef Stalin? Adolf Hitler? I don't have a hard time saying that the kingdom of god isn't the kingdom of god if stalin, as we know him and understand him, is hanging out there. As much as we all want God to be namby-pamby (is that how you spell that phrase?? ) we also don't want him to be ok with evil.
Actually the idea of Taoism isn't to emphasize a duality but to reconcile it and Taoism doesn't have a specific Heaven and Hell idea but sees the possibility of states like heaven and hell and recognizing that in the end they are part of the same thing.
I've given up on trying to pick out any individuals that I think shouldn't be in heaven. "Judge not", and all. I think it's obvious that those two did some horrible things, but I think God, if he's up there, is capable of forgiving all. Look at it this way. I think a lot of people view the concept of God's judgement the same way that they view justice on Earth. Here, criminals are punished for four reasons: (1) to keep them from harming others, (2) to teach them the error of their ways, (3) to serve as an example to other would-be wrongdoers, and (4) to fulfill the desire for vengeance. I think God as most people see him is capable of handling jobs (1) and (2) without throwing anyone into any fiery pits for all eternity. Reason (3) makes no sense at all when we have no way of knowing who is in heaven or hell. Thus, if God declines to save any of his children, it seems that he does so out of a destructive vengeance against his own creations, who have abused their free will and taken actions offensive to him. However, consider the concept of "free will". It is true that we can exert conscious control over our actions to some extent. For this reason, it is necessary to have laws and social standards that influence people to act in a way that doesn't unduly harm others. However, our conscious thoughts (which are, or at least correlate directly to, physical events) are just as much a product of our physical circumstances as those of our subconscious. So, while our justice system still serves the three purposes I outlined above, it wouldn't make much sense for a creator God to judge those actions which are merely a consequence of the physical universe he's created.
I think I understand what you are saying which is basically, in God all things are possible. So whether we as humans interpret someone's life as being evil from God's perspective, or God's mercy, they are redeemed. I have my doubts regarding God as a singular entity that we could ascribe anything like human views and would agree that if there is a God he/she/it is so totally beyond human understanding as to be on par to an ameoba trying to understand us. What I'm trying to get at is more of a what seems to be a theological conundrum regarding the idea that Christianity on the one hand is a transmission of moral values versus the idea that salvation is open to even the most wicked at the moment of death. Its no so much trying to interpret so much what God's view is as to what are Christian human's view on it. I think I understand MadMax's view regarding salvation not as an end all but as a process that someone goes through to make life better in the here and now and that would fit more with a Buddhist understanding of actions and their implications and that good actions will lead goodness both for the doer but also all of existence. I think one of my biggest blocks though to understanding a Christian point of view though regarding the idea of salvation based on acceptance of faith in the here in now is the idea that in the limited lifespan that we have determines eternity. This might be the Buddhist perspective but my idea is that eternity is ever changing and what we are now isn't what we will always be just as what I was when I was 18 isn't the same as I am now.
Great words. There is far more mercy and love there than I can even begin to comprehend...and I'm INTENSELY grateful for it. Jesus made it pretty clear judgment is coming. I really don't know what that means or what that will look like. It may mean redemption for all. But if one has the will to continue to serve self at the expense of others, I don't think that finds a way to the Kingdom of God. I don't think it can be the Kingdom of God if that's tolerated. And please understand, I'm not talking about Kingdom of God as some ethereal heavens portrait with chubby cherubs sitting on clouds.
1. I want to be clear...i do believe in the resurrection. Our eternities have already begun...so there's implications for the here and now, absolutely. Bringing heaven to earth. And the opposite of that, i feel, is dualism. And that leads so-called evangelicals to say that acid rain isn't a big deal since we'll all be leaving the world behind soon enough. It's the same theology driving the Left Behind books. And I find no support for that in scripture or my understanding of Judaism in the first century. 2. There are those who are Christians who believe that it's possible a decision could be made about after death...that there would still be time. If you have time, read "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. I think you'd really enjoy it. It's written as fiction...but Lewis is conveying his understanding of what "heaven" is.
Same here and I will let you know next time I'm down in Houston. In the same spirit I will happily get together and talk Rockets with you if you ever find yourself in Minnesota.
me too not if there is any virtue in justice and righteousness The bible only gives two reasons for judgment- it is right and it is just, these are moral reasons meaning that good actions result in good results and evil actions result in bad results or it is right to reward righteousness and punish evil. In fact it is loving to do that. Justice is a legal term it means that moral actions are deserving of their consequences. In other words righteousness should be done, but in a deserving manner. Injustice is wrong and evil in itself. Proper judgment/ punishment can set an example and protect others from harm, but that is not the purpose of judgment- judgment should reflect a love that honors justice and right choices. Vengence deals with another subject of taking up the cause of those who are wrongfully hurt. God takes vengence on the wicked because He takes up the cause of those who are damaged by evil actions. He does not ask man to take vengence because man does not have the perfect judgment to do this. Justice in the courtroom is not taking vengence. That is executing deserving judgments to uphold moral law. Vengence is very different from justice. How free the will really is has been debated by Christians for centuries. But God does judge the works of men. Or the heart or the lives, however it is phrased. The will or choices of mankind are still morally right or evil. Whether made from a perverse heart or not. This is what Jesus meant when he said evil comes out of a man from the heart. The evil within caused the choice. That is what God judges. The man who loves his enemy is judged different than the man who murders his neighbor. What ever the factors in a cold blooded murder or an act of unspeakable forgiveness and mercy God righteously judges those actions. We could not trust a God who is any other way; we could not trust a God who practiced injustice; or who could be bribed; or who held prejudices; or who was not impartial to all. What kind of God would it be who rewards evil and punishes those who are good? That is why there is a future accounting. Things don't get settled right in this life. To many people have sufferd horrible things and they never had any justice in their lifetime. Justice demands that in the end all the accounts are settled rightly and if you are not treated justly in this life then there will be a future righting of that- that's what justice does; it gives what is really deserved without partiality. Let me illustrate this further. My wife and I were missionaries years ago; our children were 3 and 6 years old. We were asked to go on a dangerous boat trip to reach out to some islands in the Pacific where no Christians had ever gone. We were told the safety of our children could not be guaranteed much less our own. They told us we had to volunteer for the trip and sign all kind of releases of liability. I didn't know what to do. I had volunteered to go paid our money but we didn't expect it to be so dangerous. I didn't want to endanger my small children. I didnot have the choice to leave them. We either took them or we had to back out. I was told to pray about it, but that didn't seem to ease my mind. I thought that God could protect my children, but I didn't want to act foolishly. I was ready to decline the trip when a thought strangely started bugging me. I kept thinking to myself that God exercises perfect justice. I didn't understand that at first, so I went to a cliff over looking the Pacific Ocean and just thought about justice. This is how I finally came to a decision. I realized that if I did all I could to protect my children and if it was God's will for our family to take this trip then God would always be a just God. I realized that in justice if I undeservedly lost anything, even my own children; God alone in His justice would be able to make this right. It was as if I heard this in my mind "I will do what is right do not fear" We went on the trip. It was very dangerous. But my children were protected. I was convinced of God's justice towards my life and my family and I didn't worry any more about whether I could lose anything that God couldn't make right and re-cover in His justice; even in a future judgment.
