This is a spinoff from a thread in the hangout http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=149542&page=1&pp=20 The issue came up regarding deathbed conversions in Christianity which is something that I've wondered about. I understand that in Protestant Christianity that faith is the key to salvation as opposed to good works but to me that leaves a loophole where one could lead an evil life and then with death approaching repent and declare faith and enter Heaven where as someone could lead a good life but without faith and still not go to Heaven. That seems like a loophole where rather than the belief of leading a good life for the sake of a good life is considered secondary to faith even a faith that is likely only motivated out of the fear at the end of life. Just wondering how is the deathbed conversion considered under Protestant Christianity?
Well a deathbed conversion is possible in Protestant Christianity, but it's not really a big loophole. I use this in this argument all the time. A profession of faith alone is not enough to warrant salvation. There has to be ACTUAL faith. Just saying it doesn't mean anything. I am not going to judge someone's heart, but I am a skeptic about most "evil" people who profess Christ before death.
Its my understanding that you can be forgiven sins, through the blood of Jesus Christ. But that you have to be sincere. Obviously someone who lived a life he knew was wrong and then tried to repent he might fail the sincerity standard. I consider myself Christian, but I have trouble believing a Supreme Being, spent a lot of time creating an elaborate torture realm where most humans will end up. (Since there are more non Christians than Christians). I think Christ is an ideal as well as a man, and that you have a chance to embrace or reject that ideal in the next world, and that hell is just an existence outside the warmth of God's love. Course that isn't as much fun as thinking about Falwell and Robertson, Hagee and their ilk roasting like pigs...but you can't have everything.
I don't pretend to know. If I had a chance to speak to Saddam Hussein on his death bed, I would talk to him about Jesus and ask him to turn his life over to him, but I would not and could not pretend that I knew that it secured salvation for him. I do believe, however, that many Christians have an incorrect view of salvation. Salvation is salvation from a life of sin, which is destructive on earth, and could end up in punishment beyond that. Jesus offers us a way out of that destructive lifestyle, with a relationship with Himself. Even so, Judgment, which Christians (however they are defined) will get to avoid, is just that. God will judge those who did not accept his Son based on their life. I am promised that he is just and will judge them justly. He will not punish all non-Christians. I don't know the standards by which people will be judged, but I can tell you how to avoid that judgment.
Paul addresses this...he says after talking about immense grace (paraphased): "so what?? should we all go on sinning then? would that somehow show how abundant God's grace is if we all went on sinning? of course not! we died to sin....how can we go on living it any longer..we can make ourselves offerings to God of righteousness?" First...this is derived from more of the "in or out" theology that I'll admit the Western Church has focused on to the point of excluding what I believe Jesus is about. It's been entirely directed towards save all the sinners from burning. Check these boxes and you're in. Leave them unchecked and you're out. I don't think God is that simplistic. Second...Protestantism brought a shifted focus to a lot of great things. But in many areas it was taken way too far. I don't want to start a thread on Calvinism, but that was taken to extraordinary lengths. We could all sit around and do nothing assuming God was taking care of it all. But none of that seems to comport with the god Jesus represented. It definitely doesn't reflect Judaism from which Christianity springs. He seems very clear that there's something to be done...that there's purpose for the Church (believers). This is the same as the call to the Jewish people to be a light to the nations. And Paul is equally clear in that regard. Unfortunately gnostic dualism has crept in over the last 200 years or so...where heaven is way up there...and hell is way down there...and we're in between with a decision to make. The decision isn't to go anywhere...it's whether you seek to bring heaven to earth or not.
If a deathbed coversion allows your last thoughts to be of your redemption then you have escaped hell since the your only reality is what is in your mind at any point of your existence and at death you cease to exist. Even as a life long atheist, I plan on trying that gambit myself. Either that or I'm going to chant the mantra "oblivion, sweet oblivion; rescue me from this mortal pain"
I have an educated guess regarding the answer but I certainly don't know the answer. I also have my suspicions there isn't one answer but am curious about people's thoughts on the matter.
I guess that you, MadMax, come from a Protestant background so an interesting take on the issue of salvation. If I'm reading you right you are almost downplaying the notion of Heaven as a goal but looking at it as an approach to how we live life. So its not a matter of a protestation of faith to get into Heaven but more of a process that improves existence in the here and now.
If that last thought goes against what you lived for, is that what you really want for an eternal reward? If so, why not reward yourself sooner.... The idea of spending an eternity based upon the actions of a blip of that time is twisted to me. I also doubt the idea is very effective against potential evil doing given man's attempts to rationalize means and ends into moral goodness, or when forced into a corner, his ability to find peace of mind loopholes.
Christianity points to the redemption of all creation. The concept of some disembodied spirit would have been very common in Greek mythology and Platonic thought, but would not have been held by someone coming from first century Judaism. I do come from a Protestant standpoint...influenced by that largely. I just recognize its limitations and where it went too far in areas. At least from my own perspective. Ultimately I believe God to be ridiculously over the top merciful. Having said that, I don't believe He forces himself on you, either. I believe in a life after this one...but in redeemed earth joined with heaven (not in a "heaven WAAAAYYY up there" context) in a resurrected body, similar to what was seen with Christ. This is what the Bible points to, from my reading. Not a dualistic, "earth--bad, heaven--good" way. That's for Plato and Taoism.
Procrastination? My veiled point was that there is no eternal reward, the only real hell is living with the self inflicted torture of guilt. I would venture that many people that live 'evil' lives avoid the self examination that preciptates guilt until the last unavoidable moment, the point where the spectre of their mortality becomes real to them. At that point the instinct for self preservation, the same one that allows us to imagine ourselves as living eternally, will grasp at every conceivable option to preserve the individual, such as confessing our sins or accepting a diety. If that gives the individual peace and not regret then they have avoided hell.
I posted this in the Go Speed Racer Go Theology thread this weekend...I think it's appropriate here. Remember, all of this is just my commentary greatly influenced by the commentary of other people and my own reading of the Bible: The word Hell in the New Testament is translated from the word Gehanna. Gehanna was an awful place when Jesus was walking the world. It was where refuse was taken...it was in a valley where the Jews abandoned God and begin to sacrifice their own children to gods. This is what Jesus was contrasting the Kingdom of God to...oh, and by the way, he kept insisting the Kingdom of God was right here, right now "on earth as it is in heaven"...in some points he said it was inside you. The Jews of the day following Jesus were looking for a fight with the Romans. A war. Led by a Messiah. And Jesus is saying, unless you repent of establishing God's plan on your terms, you're going to get torched by the Romans...and they will turn Jersusalem into Gehanna. Likewise, hell as you're talking about isn't a major topic among the letters that comprise the Bible. It doesn't get one mention in Acts, for instance. Will there be judgment?? Yes, I believe and hope there will. And you want it. Because if you entertain any notion that God might exist than you sure as hell (or gehanna) don't want him to be ok with Rwanda, Darfur, the Holocaust, pedophilia, abuse, enslavement of the weak, etc. There is evil in this world, and the hope is that it will be smashed away. Though, like the Jews calling for a war against their oppressors, I don't know if "smashed away" means something far less violent than it sounds. But if you say you believe in the God of the Bible then you say you believe that He is completely sold out for setting the world right...so anything that distorts that needs to go, and it's far beyond me to say what that will look like....though it doesn't raise pictures in my mind of what you're talking about. Ultimately you reflect what you worship, and we all worship something. To the extent that something becomes dehumanizing, I'd argue that's a pretty sure path to Gehanna (though not in the rocky caves/fire/brimstone visions you're thinking of --- at least as far as I understand it, which is to say very little! If anyone tells you they know a lot about "hell" from the Bible, they're lying). The only thing we really have similar to this Greek/Roman vision of hell that has been built up is in the only parable he tells about anyone going to hell...and it's a rich man who ignored the poor man that sat outside his home. He finds no mercy because he wasn't merciful. He's parched and there is no relief. Was this a literal account of what we're supposed to understand hell to be?? I personally don't think so, but I don't know, either. We're all sinners. Every one of us. We've all fallen short of God. But this notion that Jesus spends tons of time talking about his personal relationship with you and spinning in infinity on a cloud playing a harp with you forever is not what the hope is. He doesn't do a lot of talking about "in or out" theology. He was busy ushering in a new era. We talk at my church of partnering with God for the redemption of the world...not to have you walk the aisle with your hands raised saying yes to Jesus (though I certainly don't think that's a bad thing if it's sincere)...but rather joining in bringing heaven to earth...in meeting needs...in seeking justice for the poor...in elevating people. From cover to cover, these seem to be the issues primarily on the heart of God.
Every one so far in these threads leaves out the one thing the bible, the early Christians and Jesus focused upon. God I think Christians believe God (the Christian one) is real. And if I understand anything at all about salvation is that it is not a work that a person does. The bible talks alot about this and calls it a 'grace' People believe, Jesus saves. I don't know if leaving off that second part in this discussion works. Jesus saved a thief on the cross next to Him, just moments before they died. That is a deathbed conversion. Now as far as any other conversion or salvation or redemption; I don't think that is something man can do apart from God. Madmax has brought up the ideas of heaven and hell and redeeming lives in the here and now. Sishir you mentioned the exlusive- Jesus is the only way- mentality. I personally trust what I read in the bible. It is not hard to understand. It is simple and honorable. The message is love for God (Jesus) and love for mankind. I had lunch with Madmax and his pastor recently and remember sharing these thoughts with them; The biggest problem with us Christians today is the hypocrisy and pride presented to the rest of the world. We would rather argue, get money, build buildings, go on TV, create a Christian world (Christian bookstore, Christian dating, Christian mall, Christian TV, Christian t-shirts, Christian politics, Christian government, etc etc etc) than love God and love others the way Jesus commanded us. I would rather see a church build a day care or an aids hospice, or a food pantry than a sanctuary. People don't need a Christian religion, they need the love that comes from Jesus. I personally believe that God's love is different from human love and is what the world needs. Now on that deathbed, that is up to Jesus not me. What I believe is that whoever Jesus saves is spiritually alive and has eternal life. And in 27 years of pastoral ministry I have sat with many people in hospitals and watched many die and I have not experienced a deathbed conversion. So someone with more experience or has experienced that would know more. If your question is can someone wait for the moment of death to believe in Jesus, in my opinion that kind of pride is the exact reason the answer is NO.
I think that a majority of us have that conscience that speaks to us. Then I wonder to what extent the personal hell goes when I read detailed news about twisted tortuous rapists undergoing a marathon of violence. Can a person who relishes living in hell be punished by being in it? I'm betting that question sells some to eternal punishment idea in order to make the world more just. It's real tempting to want Cheney to be sent to the furnace, but the nature of the whole thing can be bafflingly ironic and twisted. Let's say the rapist condemned to death row performs a genuine all encompassing conversion after all those delayed years from appealing the conviction, but the rape victim who went through that tortuous, permanently disfiguring, ordeal where hours were stretched into days forsakes religion and perhaps commits suicide years later. Who's saved and who isn't?
MadMax, truth is Jesus put His love in your heart. It is a grace and it is amazing. You love people, you don't try to save anyone because you can't. But you know you can love some. You can make a difference. And that is what God is doing in your life. You are a great encouragement to me. Don't we long for the authenticity and sincerity of Jesus. We thirst for it. We are created for it. I appreciate your perspective so much because I know your love for Jesus and people. Others in these forums respect that also. Your turn to buy. Thanks
The human mind is a complex neural network that partly arises from it's physical structure and partly from the development process. There can be errors or damage in either or both. Some humans have little or no conscience, some people develop destructive behaviors because of conflicts within their conscience, and they can be directected outward or at the self. Some people sublimate their conscience and commit otherwise inconscienable acts out of altruism, self preservation or just misguided judgements. We all compromise our value system everyday, it's just a matter of to what degree. Guilt and peace of mind seem to be the regulators of that compromise. I certainly can't comprehend the state of mind of someone who willingly commits atrocities. I can't even wrap my head around people who get into S&M sexually. We are some complicated apes.
