Phoenix was fortuitous to sign Nash with a perfect fit roster and an offensive minded coach that best maximizes his play-making abilitiy. It was good enough to get him two MVP's in an opportune time. T-mac is an equally gifted play-maker but unfortunately the recipients of his passes are not as profficient in converting those opportunities. Quality thread btw.
You nailed it Agent 94. They took a mistake and compounded it by making Nash a 2-time winner.. The first year (04-05) this is what Nash had to work with: Amare 26 ppg 8.9 rpg Marion 19.4 ppg 11.3 rpg Joe Johnson 17.1 ppg Quentin Richardson 14.9 ppg Nash contributed his 15.5 ppg, 11.5 apg and 34 mpg, and to be sure was the catalyst for the huge turnaround, but he hardly had to do the heavy lifting by himself on this team that a typical MVP, even on the best team, has to do. Amare is not a 25 ppg scorer because of Nash, and after he leaves he will still score just as much, just like Dirk has in Dallas without Nash. Marion was already doing his Matrix thing long before Nash was there, and now that he's gone, they only won 1 playoff game this year. Johnson is a proven 25 ppg scorer, and he is the best player on a playoff team that just took the #1 overall seed to 7 games. Richardson has not exactly flourished with the Knicks, but who does? He played 35 mpg in 04/05 with Nash and scored 15 ppg. 06/07 is the only year he averaged close to 35 mpg (33), and he scored 13 ppg with Marbury setting him up, so not much dropoff there. So I'm ok with Nash getting the first one, I guess. But the second??? That's the one that made me anti-Nash, because that season Kobe Bryant was clearly the MVP of the NBA. Nash did raise his scoring to 19 ppg, and the Suns did beat Kobe's Lakers in the 1st round, but look at what Kobe did and what he had to work with on the Lakers: Bryant 35.4 ppg 5.3 rpg 4.5 apg 1.8 spg 41 mpg Odom 14.8 ppg 7 rpg 5.5 apg 40 mpg Smush Parker 11.5 ppg 33.8 mpg Chris Mihm 10.2 ppg That is a travesty. His third option that year was Smush Parker for crying out loud. To make matters worse, the trickle-down effect of Nash winning in 05/06 probably cost a real superstar PG the MVP this year. If Kobe had won that year, voters may have been less anxious to reward him this year, probably making Chris Paul the 07/08 MVP. Speaking of which, Paul doesn't seem to be having so much trouble leading his team to a 2-0 series lead in his first playoff series against the big bad San Antonio Spurs? I guess that's what happens when a team has a true superstar leading it into the playoffs. You certainly can't make a case that Paul has more help against the Spurs this year than Nash had all the years he has lost to them. I called Sean and John on 1560 yesterday to get their thoughts, and Sean made a really good point that no one has brought up: The disparity between how Nash and Tmac are treated for their playoff failures could very well stem from the difference in their natural athletic ability and body type. People see Tmac, and they see a 6'8" 30 ppg scorer who makes the game look easy. So when he doesn't come through with playoff victories and championships, people look at his ability and think he is not maximizing what he has. Even though he is still extremely productive, people expect more and assume that he is not trying as hard as he can and leaving it all on the court. I think this is a valid criticism of Tmac. On the other hand you have Nash, a tiny, unathletic white soccer player who makes the game look easy. When he doesn't come through in the playoffs, people see an overachiever who is maximizing every ounce of production out of his tiny, slow body. While his production is good (not even close to Tmac, however), no one expects anything more from Nash, so the blame gets transferred to his coach, or Shawn Marion, or Shaq, or Amare getting suspended, or the unstoppable Spurs, or whatever other excuse people use to defend Nash and the Suns for not even reaching the NBA Finals. I think this is an invalid defense for Nash. True superstars put their teams on their back in the playoffs, regardless of the opponent or situation, and get results. Tmac does not do this, and Nash does not do this. LeBron, Kobe, Paul, and Duncan do. The difference is, Tmac does not have 2 MVP trophies and an endless legion of loyal Nashists to step up and deflect the blame elsewhere when he does not come through when it matters most. Nash, it seems, does, even on a Rockets fan website. Sad but true. Oh well, I've had enough, thank you all for your input.
I disagree with these 2 statements. 1. A difference is Steve Nash playing bad in the 4th quarter big time playoff games is the exception. Tmac has had his clutch moments too. He hit the game-winner Game 1 versus Dallas the first season, he had the explosion against the Spurs in the last minute during the regular season, and has created and made numerous scoring opportunities to win close games throughout his career. The problem is he never can do it consistently enought to close out series. Nash is better in this area than Tmac, but it's not as though Tracy always comes up short in the clutch. He just gets hammered when he can't finish, whereas Nash seems to get a pass. 2. if your demanding your MVPs be at that level (not that any other current NBAers have been that either for at least 5 years running) Again I disagree. The 05/06 MVP was clearly Kobe. He matched the best individual season Jordan ever had, lead a terrible roster to the 6th seed and took Nash's Suns to 7 games before losing to a superior team talent-wise. The 06/07 MVP was clearly LeBron, not Dirk. He took a lousy Cavs team to the Finals, and that game against the Pistons when he literally carried his team past the Pistons was the most amazing playoff performance I have ever seen by one player. I know playoff performance doesn't count for MVP, but his regular season was also far superior to what Dirk did. I contend that Kobe and LeBron have been playing at a level that approaches what Jordan, Shaq or Dream did in their primes (other than the rings) for the past 3 years at least. Either would have been more than deserving to win MVP those years instead of Nash or Dirk. They were just on crappy teams and had no help at all. This season, Chris Paul got robbed because voters felt obligated to give Kobe his, when in reality he should already have at least one instead of Nash having two. I'm sure next season someone else will get robbed because voters will feel obligated to give it to LeBron, when in reality he should already have at least one instead of Dirk. I don't think the NBA has lacked deserving candidates over the last 3-5 years. I just think Don Sterleone was too busy pumping his flashy new money-maker to allow those players the recognition they deserved.
There is no way Tmac takes a team of boris diaw, Barbosa, and Marion w/o Amare to the western conference finals. He barely likes to run and Nash is always pushing it up court. The rockets are good cause of D not their O.
Sorry. I had to comment on this. Jordan's best individual season was 88-89 when at the age of 25, he posted a 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, and 8.0 apg season with a 53.8% FG. Kobe hasn't touched that yet.
I haven't read this whole thread... The problem I have with Nash is that he is not a go-to scorer per se. You never see him isolate his man in the halfcourt and break him down off the dribble when the game is on the line. All other MVP's have pretty much been guys that you can give the ball to and say "Here, go to work" in a 1 on 1 situation during crunch time. Nash needs a pick and roll, or a fastbreak, or some kind of play within the motion of the offense to get in and make his move. That's not MVP worthy.
The only good comparison between Nash and McGrady is that they both are unreasonably bashed on this board.
I agree that Nash is definitely not as good a player as Kidd, Stockton, and Payton were in their primes, and I also agree that it's BS that he has two MVPs. He's an awful defensive player. You almost seem to be implying that he sucks though... and that certainly ain't true. If he was offered in exchange for T-Mac, I'd at least think about it. I hate how much of a ball-stopper T-Mac is.
Nash made amare better. Without Nash, amare wouldn't be as good. He'd still average 20+ but with lower FG% and more turnovers.
Actually, Shaq DID get better this season when he went to the Suns. Stats don't lie. Johnson got better because he didn't have to share the ball with the other Suns, a problem they still faced AFTER he left Nash is not a good defender but is an elite offensive PG. He hits tons of huge shots and has amazing court vision EDIT: If you don't think he was a VITAL piece of the Suns team, check their Win/loss record and PPG when he was out.
man, Milos, where have you been all this time! this thread has been very good. as for nash getting to the WCF without amare, they got to face the overmatched 7th seeded lakers and then a solid but nothing special 6th seeded clippers. and needed 7 games to beat both. it's impressive, but it's not like they took down this year's spurs, lakers, jazz, or hornets to get there.
Milos obviously has something against Steve Nash but that's his position which I respect. But to argue that he's overrated and did not deserve to be MVP is just plain dumb. There's no conspiracy involved in giving him the MVP. I watched this guy play for years in Dallas and he's the real deal - as good a point guard as they come. At his prime he was phenominal and thanks to the genius of Mark Cuban, his leaving Dallas is the prime reason the Mavericks find themselves in quicksand today. The Rockets would absolutely kill to have a superior PG like Nash playing in the place of Alston right now. A Rockets team with Nash, Yao & McGrady would spell championship in my book. To me, this is yet another in a continuing series of threads trying to rationalize the shortcomings of Tracy McGrady. Don't misunderstand me here: Tmac is a very good player - a star player - but his lack of playoff success both defines and taints his legacy. Until he does win something there will always be whispers about just how good he is/was. He's very gifted athletically but he also lacks the inner will to be truly great and he's been his own worst enemy when dealing publicly with the pressure to succeed. Guys like Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson, Hakeem, Magic Johnson, Willis Reed, Chris Paul, John Stockton and LeBron James all possess that drive to be champions while after 10 years in the league, we are still questioning if Tmac has it too. That, to me speaks volumes. If Tracy McGrady is as good as folks like Milos want him to be, then they should be able to defend him without having to tear down another player in order to make him look good by comparison. He should be good because he really is good and not because someone else really is bad.
I don't think Milos cares about shooting %. I am not bashing Tmac, but I am disputing outlandish characterizations of Nash and efforts to diminish his level of play and his impact in the team game in which the NBA is. There is nothing new to what Don Sterleone or MVP voters have done in the last 5 years going KG, Nash, Nash, Dirk, Kobe. Team success has been recognized as a major, major factor for the history of the award. In the last 20+ years the only time it went to player not in the top 2 spots in their conference was Michael Jordan in 87-88. And on top of his 35-6-6 season where he shot 54% and had 1.6 blocks and 3.2 steals his Bulls finished tied for 3rd at time the East conference was great (Celts & Pistons near their peak). Neither Kobe nor Lebron has touched those figures, and probably won't. Even the year before Jordan scored 37PPG but lost to 24PPG 12APG Magic Johnson in the MVP race--voters weighed team success over individual performence and certainly defense, where Jordan was light years better than Magic. So call Nash (or Dirk or KG or AI) the worst MVPs ever if you want to--but you can't say there were awarded because of a new bias or because of different interpretation about the award.
If T-Mac and Nash are in the same boat, then KG should be in a dinghy. This "MVP" only got out of the first round once previous to the Celtics, and after the two players that really helped him get there left, he hasn't even made the playoffs. Now a KG-led team (if it is) needed 7 games to beat an 8th seed, and they barely beat the Cavs with LeBron James going 2/18FG. LOL. This is ridiculous. Then that stupid Adrian Wojrnadumbass for Yahoo writes an article on how the Celtics earned their title as best defensive team against LeBron. ARE YOU SERIOUS? Really, Adrian? LeBron missed several wide open shots, and kept taking them. That's why he played so bad. The best defensive team in the league couldn't find a way to guard Joe Johnson when he dropped 20 in the 4th quarter on them. They needed 7 games to beat an 8th seed. They got lucky LeBron was sucking so bad last night, that's why they won, not that they shut him down. What I will say is that PP and Ray Allen failed to show up, so that's going to change next game, but LeBron will not shoot 2/18 either. I think it's safe to say that this is one series that will be interesting?
Garnett was so over rated in Minnesota, people praise people like that when they can't even carry a team to the playoffs like Tracy has for us
You do realize that Kidd will probably make it to the hall of fame right? You cant possibly hold it against Nash that he didnt supplant Kidd as the starting point guard. Do you think Kobe is any good? He must not be. After all, he backed up eddie jones when he came into the league...
