A Question to Obama Supporters

It is not my "dislike of Clinton" that accounts for my refusal to vote for her any more than it is my "dislike" of Bush that accounts for my refusal to have voted for him. "Issues" and "personality" are not the only two possible things on which someone might base this decision. I have demonstrated that in many, many posts on this topic, in which I have explained my decision in detail and in which you and other Clinton supporters have pretty much systematically neglected to address the substance of my complaints.

And it certainly doesn't have any thing to do with "frustration over the inability of [my] candidate to win the nomination." That would be pretty silly since "my candidate" is winning by every possible measure and is considered by every serious person the favorite to ultimately win.

It also seems pretty silly to aim this at Obama supporters since all recent polls (in PA, in TX, in OH) have shown that there are more Clinton supporters threatening to vote McCain if their candidate doesn't get the nomination than the other way around.

But, if I am one of the ones you are talking to here (and it seems like I would be), mainly I find it really insulting that you characterize my support for Obama (or opposition to Clinton) as something that has anything at all to do with "personality." Especially since I've explained many times what I base my positions about each of these candidates on and in neither case is "personality" an issue. After all the posts I've made explicitly explaining why I refuse to vote for Clinton, and after all the times you've failed to address my reasons for it, it is pretty nearly offensive that you would frame this thread that way.

For every voter there is a line (or really several lines) that a candidate could potentially cross after which it will become impossible for that voter to support the candidate. Hillary has crossed those lines where I'm concerned several times. I'm not going to waste time listing examples here until someone promises to address them.

It gets pretty frustrating to continually post the same arguments, have them systematically ignored by every Clinton supporter here on substance (with the occasional, and selective, exception of The Cat) and then be told I'm basing my opinions on "personality" or I think Obama's the Messiah or that I think he's not a politician. "Obama's a politician too" is not an answer to a single post I've made here about Hillary. Neither is "He's not the Messiah." Neither is some suggestion that his campaign is premised on being somehow 'post-race.'

Seriously, it's insulting. If you want to convince me to feel differently, you'd be well advised to actually address my various stated concerns. But to ask me why I'm not voting for Hillary -- after neglecting to respond to my many previous posts explaining exactly that -- and if, worse, you're going to accuse me of basing my vote on their "personalities" after all that, well gosh. I really don't know what to tell you.

 

Here is what I said in another thread, I agree with the thread starter for the most part.


I respect John McCain the person a heck of lot more than Hillary. Compared to other national politicians, I think both Obama and McCain are as strait up direct, honest and relatively independent (less-partisan) thinkers as you get.

That said, I think much of McCain's domestic and foreign policies would continue the disasterous, shortsighted, current admin. Make no effort to correct the looming American medical care fiscal and effectiveness disaster. Further gut education and science spending (basically the only domestic spending or governmental role McCain sees worthwhile is the military). Perhaps even more troublesome, McCain would continue the militaristic and interventionist foreign policies of the current adm--both further sinking us in debt that does nothing for our own national infrastructure and creating more enemies in the process. I think McCain would appoint much better persons than GWB has, but that would be the main difference.

In Obama I have a guy who is much better in policy and non-partisanness than most--so he is strongly my choice. But in the end if I were choosing between the more stand up less partisan McCain vs the the less stand up Clinton, I am sorry I go with Clinton, easy. The policies and directions make a whole lot more importance than their personal attributes.

But you could be right, maybe there are a lot more persons out there like yourself that place character, authenticity and strait forwardness (for a politician that is) above their positions and underlying political philosophies. Not me. If there positions were in the same ballpart I would weigh those things--in this case the position differences (and allengences/promises) between Obama/Clinton and McCain are way too stark for those other things to matter enough to me.

In the end I am hoping for an Obama/Clinton ticket honestly. In the end their positions are 97% the same and Clinton can provide some potentially pragmatic and usefull qualities in experience/perspective. She is a tough cookie, extra ambitious, more partisian than most and her team on the slimier side of campaigning--but she is far from a demon to me and has some positive attributes she would bring (as mentioned above) in addition to demographic appeal (political expediency).

But I much prefer Obama and not Clinton on the top of the ticket.

 

I've mentioned that I would vote for Hillary because McCain is slowly transforming into another Bush on the biggest issues. Plus he's old and his VP will be one of the more important decisions in the election. If she continues making the election negative and bitter to get nominated, I might just stay home.

I found that ironic too.

 

I am sorry to tell you that Hillary has made it a certainty that this will never happen.

It would be utterly suicidal for any nominee of any party to select a running mate who is on record saying he was not ready to be president or that his opponent had passed the threshhold to be commander in chief of our armed forces and he hadn't.

That would be the only commercial you'd see in the entire general election and it would be the only one the Republicans would need. If Obama's own number two is on video saying he isn't ready to be president and his opponent would be a better commander in chief, why should anyone vote for him?

In fact it is this very rhetoric from Clinton that is responsible for so many of her supporters saying they wouldn't vote for Obama. It is beyond ironic for one of her supporters to be chiding his for the very same thing in the face of that.

 

I don't know...if Obama really wants it, he might rationalize doing it for the greater good.

Strange bedfellows and all that.

 

If he thinks losing in the fall would be for the greater good maybe.

No candidate can select a running mate who is on video saying the various things Clinton has said about him and have any hope of winning. Even without her as the VP nominee she will be all over their commercials -- in a way we have never seen before.

She has made an Obama/Clinton ticket suicidal.

 

if she beats him in pledged delegates then she earned it and i will vote for her.I have never liked the politics where you can't beat them on polices so you lie,cheat,and steal your way to get elected.I have a problem with changing the rules in the middle of the game more then the dirty politics and things she say honestly.

The thing I hate about politics is, most sane people know that Obama is not a racist and is trying to do something positive, but they try to him with other people to win an election. I understand a person voting for their candidate because of polices, but demonizing a candidate to get elected is not good for America.

 

Yeah why it would be smart to put her on the ticket, but why would you have somebody on your ticket that might stab you in the back in the process. If she was vice president then you would probably need special secret service for obama just to watch the Clintons.

 

First off, I'm an independent and support Obama over Hillary but not necessarily McCain.

When voting for president, stands on issues are important. But there is a lot more to being president than position papers. The style, integrity, method of choosing subordinates and, yes, personality of a president is extremely important and should not be understated.

If Obama ran against McCain, my vote would be up for grabs. If it's Hillary against McCain, I will go out of my way to influence 10-15 people who usually vote for the Dems to either stay home or choose McCain.

On Iraq, the difference between what actually happens the next 4 years will not be as drastic as rhetoric suggests. Everyone should realize the Dem congress and public opinion will prevent McCain from a "stay the course" policy that accomplishes nothing but more lost American lives and continued degradation of our military. In fact, a McCain presidency will be weak and won't accomplish anything the Dem congress doesn't want it to. Don't forget the Senate has to approve Supreme Court nominees and the Dem congress would love to smack down McCain if given the chance. IMO, McCain will be a one term lame-duck with a short honeymoon period. If he goes far to the right, he will go alone while the American public and congress roll their eyes.

On the Dem side, there is a great risk in electing either Hillary or Obama because they have large majorities in Congress. I'm afraid the Dems might overreach and crash. There is no way in the world I trust Hillary with a Dem congress. I have no doubt her administration would be as secretive, corrupt and scandal-ridden as Bush's, maybe worse, and the Dem congress would protect her. On the other hand, Obama might earn my vote based on his ability to attract new blood and fresh people. He is the antithesis of political dynasties like the Bushes and Clintons.

You can term it "personality" or whatever you want, but you vote for MUCH more than a candidate's positions on issues when you vote for president. You are voting for the administration they create, it's honesty and way of conducting the nation's business. This is the crux of why, as an independent, I would consider voting for Obama but will definitely go for McCain if Hillary gets the Dem nod. This campaign has made her more radioactive to me than before, which is an incredible accomplishment.

 

I have a real question.

Why did his views of the crazy AIDS guy seem to change so slowly? The huge speech everyone seems to love he compared him to his grandmother but now he is totally dismissing him. wtf?

 

I won't vote for Hillary because of her lack of integrity. Issues as well as integrity play a part. There is also the fact that I don't know what kind of foreign policy she will have. She is all over the board on that, and her judgment has been lacking every step of the way.

She voted to support Iraq war. She voted to give Bush benefit of the doubt regarding Iran even after what happened with the Iraq war. She's talking about making the U.S. watchdog of any nation in the middle east attacked by Iran etc. On that huge issue, she has zero credibility.

I live in CA, if I vote for a third party candidate it won't change the outcome. If it did, then great. Maybe the Hillary lead Democrats would get a message and change their style, and the kinds of candidates they put forward. In the long run, the sacrifice to McCain would be worthwhile.

 

Wright wasn't wasn't misrepresenting Obama's positions before. Once Wright started doing that it was needed. I don't believe Obama thought Wright was capable of that kind of stuff.

 

oopsoops oops

 

To answer your original question, I value pragmatism and the ability to compromise over issue positions - because the reality is that the minority party in Congress has the ability to really kill a lot of an agenda if they really want to. But on the issues:

On Iraq: I don't believe McCain will be able to stay as long as he wants, and I don't think Obama/Clinton will be able to leave as quickly as they want. The nation is already on a path of eventual withdrawal - public opinion ensures that. But it will be determined by the situation on the ground. Sure, Obama/Clinton would push it more quickly, but the bottom line is that neither is going to leave until conditions allow it, and neither is going to ultimately stay beyond what is necessary.

On the Supreme Court: I think this is also overrated. For starters, everyone knows the stakes on the Supreme Court. The Dems aren't going to allow someone on the far-right to take another seat on the bench, especially if the retiring justice is to the left. You'd end up with a moderate conservative, most likely. I don't want to go into detail on abortion, but ultimately, I think this is overrated. Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, I think abortion will remain legal - and that fight is going to continue as long as the public is divided over it.

What I think is important right now is (1) limiting the power of the Presidency and (2) getting a functional government again. On #1, Bush went way beyond previous administrations in simply flouting the way the Presidency has been run and doing what he wants - in terms of secrecy, signing statements, etc. It's my belief that Hillary is extremely power hungry - and will be more than happy to continue that based on precedent. On #2, we've gone down a dangerous road since the late 1990's where each party, the minute they lose the previous election, simply focuses on ensuring the majority party can get nothing done until the next election. That has to change - there are very real issues coming up with Social Security, Medicare, etc and to get anything accomplished, you're going to have to have leadership that doesn't demonize the other side and simply create an environment that nothing can get accomplished. Hillary, whether her fault or not, immediately polarizes the other side and ensures that about 45% of the country will hate her on Day #1. That's a huge problem and just encourages more of that problem - and will make it difficult for her to govern. McCain has shown a lot of willingness to work with the other side. Obama, while he would have a Dem Congress, has also shown an interest in getting broader support for his policies. Hillary seems very much like a 51% type person - same as her campaign strategy.

I like Obama, I really dislike Hillary due to character failings and a dangerous power-hungriness. Ultimately, I just don't mind McCain. That may change down the road, but that's why I would vote McCain over Hillary right now. I won't vote someone who I consider corrupt and power-centric just because I agree with them on more issues. I can't do it.

 

Come on, FB. Barack grossly mishandled the Reverend Wright controversy and has managed to turn what should have been a minor primary campaign issue into a major issue in November. He should have disowned him when the bizarre rants from the pulpit, taken out of context, or not, first came out.... and after seeing his (Wright's) remarks the last few days, I'm inclined to believe they weren't taken out of context enough to be worth arguing about. Just a few days ago, he was still defending the guy. Now Barack suddenly figures out he's (Wright, in my opinion) an idiot? Now he's worth disowning?

Again, this has, in my opinion, been grossly mishandled and speaks to Barack's relative political inexperience. He better get his **** together. If this primary season is considered tough by him and his supporters (I support him, voted for him, but I also support Hillary Clinton), they ain't seen nothin' yet.




Impeach Bush.

 

My #1 issue is energy policy, we need to jumpstart our alternative energy
programs on a massive scale and use it to encourage domestic manufacturing and jobs in technology, construction and services.

The insanity of the status quo is staggering in it's shortsightedness. You could put a wind turbine right in front of my beachouse and I'd be fine with it.

In this regard Hillary=McCain so I wouldn't really have a choice. I'd hold my nose and vote for Hillary. McCain used to have my respect as a maverick but he seems to be campaigning as a party politics Republican more and more.

 

Major, I think you are incredibly optimistic regarding John McCain. I know you aren't a Democrat and I respect that, but if you care a wit about the party's agenda, I simply can't believe you would vote for McCain. McCain voted for confirming some of the most conservative members of the current Supreme Court and said they were the type of judges he'd nominate. Some of those SC judges were confirmed with a larger Democratic majority in Congress than we have now. He's adamately against any form of universal health care. He wants to stay in Iraq, and I don't know why you think the Democratic Congress is going to cut funding for that war against the wishes of a Republican President on the bully pulpit.

Get a grip, with all due respect. Vote for yourself, vote for Batman, vote for the damn dogcatcher, but don't kid yourself that McCain is a moderate. He isn't.



Impeach Bush.

 

I think Obama handled Wright the exact correct way given their history. It wasn't the politically smart way, but that's what I liked about it. He did what was right, rather than what was politically expedient.

He never sought political advice from Wright and so believed all along that Wright's more extreme views weren't that important. Wright brought Obama to Christianity, and obviously served an important spiritual function in Obama's life for many years.

When the controversy hit, Obama removed him from his campaign, but took a principled stand refused to throw him under the bus. Just because the media tried to paint a whole picture of Wright using about half an hour of a 30 year career to do so, and even that half an hour taken out of context. Obama had a larger picture and wouldn't be swayed by the public image.

Previously Wright's offensive statements were about what he himself believed. But once he tried to attach Obama's name and smear Obama's integrity over it, of course Obama reacted as we've seen.

You are right that the issue did blow up, and that's all the more reason to support Obama. He sacrificed political expediency for integrity and principle. If you want 4-8 more years of these types of trivial stupid issues overshadowing things that are actually important and effect people's lives, keep supporting Hillary. She does well in that environment. Obama however has shown once again that he is above it, for the most part, and proved that point with the whole Wright controversy. You keep saying there isn't really a difference in the two as politicians, but Obama has run a very different campaign from Hillary. He's shown time and time again, that he's serious about his change message, and as much as anyone can, he's practiced what he's preached.

You've claimed that Obama's just another politician who hides it better, but this incident shows that isn't really the case. Once he shows that he puts some things above politics you criticize him for it.

I have a hard time believing that you've liked the tone of politics these past 8 - 16 years. Yet Hillary and not Obama has been using everything that created that tone in her campaign. Obama has had opportunities to do so again and again, and has refused.

 

(sigh) FB, the idea is to win in November. WIN in November. In case I wasn't clear, the idea for Senator Barack Obama, who I still think will when the nomination, although he isn't making it easy, is to win in November. The way he handled Wright did not help that goal. At all. Spin it how you like, the American people are still deciding who they want to elect as President. Barack doesn't have a big lead in the popular vote for the nomination and is now polling behind Hillary Clinton in a match-up in November. Why is he polling behind Hillary Clinton against John McCain? You will probably say it's because of the "negative campaign" of his primary opponent. Sure, that hasn't helped, but in my opinion, the main reason is Reverend Wright. He should have separated himself from the man far earlier and in the way he did it, finally, yesterday.

Look, I admired George McGovern. I voted for him. He lost. Result? More years of Vietnam, Watergate, and national trauma. Pardon me if I'm not a fan of phyrric victories. Barack needs to step up to the plate and get his political bat ready. He's going to need it.



Impeach Bush.