Why Kobe is Overrated, WHy It Takes Two To Win, and Why Hakeem Was The Greatest...

Yet another person who hasn't watched Carter, but yet comments on his game.

Vince Carter is the BEST offensive rebounding SG in the NBA. Thats with Hakeem, Keon, JYD and Antonio Davis, all strong rebounders out there.

Defensive rebounds are easy to get, its usually being in the right place at the right time or standing outside the key getting the long board with the former offense regrouping and going on D. But Offensive boards is the real tough one, that shows the high agressive, the shear will to enter the traffic and fight for the board. Thats shows the willingness to put your body on the line and fight with 7 footers to just get that extra board. And yet, Vince still averages more overall boards than Kobe and one more offensive board a game.

As for passing, Kobe averages 1 more assist a game than Vince. But Vince is on a team that shoots 43% compared to the Lakers 46%. No Raptor shoots over 50%, yet Kobe has Shaq there who shoots 60% and dunks all the time leading to more assists. And yet again, if you were to watch them play, you'd see Vince could easily have 5 assists more a game but due to the 'scrubiness' of the Raptor team, they aren't expecting a lot of the passes Vince throws at them, which turns into the TOs Vince gets stuck with.

As for leadership, to say Kobe is a leader on the Lakers is a joke, he never deals with his teammates, he keeps to himself and thats all. He doesn't lead that team, never has and never will. As for Vince, he's coming along, but when you are on a Vet team, with formally Oakley and AD, and AD now, AD gets most of the responsibility. Don't discount Vince's leadership skills, it may not be apparent to someone like you who just gets their facts from the newspapers and biased ESPN, but Vince is maturing every day and becoming a better allaround player as each game goes by.

As for defence, I won't defend Vince much here. When he wants to, he plays amazing d, but he doesn't do it alot. It may be because he has to carry more than 25% of the teams offensive load and he's tired, but whatever it may be, he will continue to improve like he has every single year he has been in this league.

 

Shaq + Keon Clark = Championship
Shaq + Cuttino = Championship
Shaq + Ryan Bowen = Championship

Can anyone deny the truth?

 

I agree with you on two out of three.

 

It's impossible to prove anything such as this, actually.

Now, you're just being absurd. Phil Jackson has also said "Robert Horry is our MVP." Phil Jackson has also said that Kobe is the closest player ot Jordan he's ever seen.

Coaches use the media as an indirect forum to make impressions upon their players. When Jackson said Horry was MVP, he really meant that Horry made important contributiosn that often get overlooked.

When he said that Shaq makes Kobe better, he's likely telling Kobe not to demand a trade to be the man. Or at least putting a spin out there that would discourage Kobe from doing so.

You know what? You also didn't mention the fact that the Lakers would also have had less experience playing without Shaq. So perhaps Kobe's game wouldn'tve been adjusted as well, either. Of course not, because you have absolutely no interest in interpetating data in any way other than what you've assumed in your inititial conjecture. You're rationalizing.

When he said that Shaq makes Kobe better, he's likely telling Kobe not to demand a trade to be the man. Or at least putting a spin out there that would discourage Kobe from doing so.

On a side note, whence the insulting tone? My last post was pretty neutral. I don't think that what you're arguing is obvious to most people, at all.

But then, I suppose we should all bow to your incredible expertise. Mere mortals cannot contest the supreme basketball knowledge of JAG. Or at least, they can't "prove" it, and merely make statements.

 

Yeah Carter never had that intimidator behind him yet the Raptors are leading the league in blocks per game for the second season running.

Shaq is such a great defender that the Lakers' opponents average 90.7 points per game against them when Shaquille is out this season(better than when Shaquille actually plays), Shaq is such a great defender that he let Mutombo nearly score 20 points a game against him in the finals. Shaq is not a great defender, the amount of times he makes his teammates look bad by getting burnt on the pick and rolls is embarrassing.

I read something showing the player Kobe guarded shot a combined 35% last season in the games where Shaquille missed due to injury. Admittly Kobe's defense fell off a lot for a stretch there during this season due to him experiencing discomfort with his rib injury. But Kobe is just a great defender.

Yeah unbiased statement, . Funny how NBA coaches have voted Kobe to the all defensive team for 2 seasons running while McGrady has a measly 3 votes or something like that. It's consensus amongst NBA coaches Kobe is one of the best defenders in the game, yet isn't it funny Shaq hasn't been a part of these all defensive teams.

Also, in an ESPN poll conducted amongst NBA players and coaches, Kobe was voted as the best defender in the game, McGrady and Shaq both got no votes.

So, you know better than NBA players and coaches,hmmmm ok

I'm no basketball historian but why don't you go check Pippen's stats the season Jordan first retired. He recorded career highs in every category that mattered, he averaged 4 points more despite only taking 1 more shot per game. Having another dominant player who takes touches away from you will take away from your stats.

Kobe has shown in the past 2 seasons(18 games) that his stats go dramatically up with Shaquille out of the lineup. Reasons are..

1.With Shaq out of the lineup, the middle becomes vacant and allows Kobe to attack continually, this'll result in Kobe drawing a lot more fouls and going to the free throw line more. Last season I believe he went to the free throw line 20 times while Shaq was out. All the while showing this season he will actually shoot a higher percentage from the field while Shaq doesn't play.

2.Kobe will take slightly more shots and more importantly better shots. Right now, after the ball runs in the offense, Kobe moves around off the ball a lot, this doesn't allow him time to create and pick his shots, a lot of his shots is just throw Kobe the ball with 3 seconds left on the clock and let him hoist it up. That is not a high percentage shot. No Shaq=more ball for Kobe. Thus he'll be able to pick when to shoot, and when to pass, it'll allow for "better" shots. Also another huge factor transition. The Lakers until recently have been anything but a transition team, Shaq slows down the offense yet transition is where most of the stars like kobe and Iverson shine. The other guys like iverson and McGrady get multiple easy transition baskets a game, Kobe doesn't have that luxury with Shaq in there. You take Shaq out and the Lakers are going to run more, resulting in easy baskets for Kobe, as seen in the Memphis game. Another factor, with Shaq out, it means Kobe goes to rebound more, he averages quite a lot of offensive rebounds with Shaq out, which leads to easy putbacks.

In terms of scoring, with Shaq out, the extra defensive attention on Kobe should be neutralized by the fact Kobe will get more easy transition baskets, getting more offensive rebounds and he'll get to pick his shots more. He'll end up shooting a similar percentage(as he is doing this season without Shaquille) yet end up scoring more point since he'll get fouled more, and he'll be shooting the amount of shots more on par with the likes of Carter.

It's obvious Kobe will get more rebounds with Shaq out, both sharing his spoils and having a bigger rebounding role.

As for assists, I don't think having Shaq in there benefits him at all. You take Shaq out, and Kobe has the ball in his hands a lot more. The extra defensive attention would also mean Kobe could find the open man easier which would lead to an easy basket and thus assist. Shaq probably only makes 10 shots a game, more than half of them comes from him backing down for ages thus not having an assist credited for that basket. So Shaq scores, so what, other teams in the league score too, and they get assists too. Just because Shaq makes a few flashy easy looking baskets doesn't mean his baskets count for any more assists. I know NickVanExel and Eddie Jones are certainly averaging more assists now than they were when they played with Shaq. Kobe has also average more assists this season with Shaq out instead of in, so yeah, Shaq doesn't help anyone in terms of assists more than the average superstar.

What do turnovers have to do with ballhandling ability? IVerson is a great ballhandler, yet he leads the league in turnovers, Kidd is a great ballhandler, he gets nearly 4 a game. Kobe's turnovers were very high last season especially for someone who doesn't touch the ball as much as the other guys in the half court, but that can be attributed to bad decision making more than anything. He's cut back on his turnovers this season, another sign he's matured as a player. Kobe's ballhandling ability is as good as you can expect from a shooting guard.

Iverson is probably the only guy that actually gets the all heralded constant defensive attention. I've seen quite a lot of Raptors and Magic games and for the vast majority of them, Carter and McGrady pretty much operate one on one unless they drive down the middle in where everyone gets a lot of defensive attention.

But then, Iverson takes as many shots as points he scores and leads the league in turnovers, not to mention he turns everyone else on his team into standing statues. Result-Philly have the 3rd worst offense in the NBA.



Numbers don't lie, Kobe averages 30, 6.5 and 5.5 on 48% shooting with Shaq out. Taking a team of total scrubs to a better-than-.500 record. With Shaq in there, Kobe was still the leading scorer on the best playoff team in history, the team was 15-1 against the best the NBA had the offer all the while having Kobe put up big numbers. How much better can the team get if you replace Kobe with someone else? There is hardly any room for improvement, and considering the fact 15-0 has never been done, I don't like the odds on anyone doing a better job than what Kobe did.


As for playing with Shaquille, he sure didn't seem to make anyone else better, Eddie Jones posted much better numbers away from him, as did Nick Van Exel, as did Elden Campbell, as did Rick Fox, as did Horry. It's tough to outshine someone THAT good when you play on the same team as him, there's a reason why there has only been one duo in NBA history who have both averaged more than 28 points per game, because it's near impossible for 2 players to be so good that both can show off their individual brilliance while still keeping the team at such a peak level.

 

Since you trust in Phil so much, he said during the playoffs last season that Kobe is the best all round player he has ever coached, and that includes Jordan. So Kobe is better than Jordan? Because Phil said so?

And I just read you value the opinion of Bill Walton so much? You should know Walton in his mailbag just a while back said Kobe was on a level higher than the Vince Carters, you can go and write and ask for his opinion on the issue again if you like.

 

Funny Shaq didn't win a championship with anyone until Kobe stepped his game up onto a whole new level.

Shaq's numbers last season are pretty much the same numbers he's been putting up for his whole career. Yet what once ended up in sweeps every season ended up in the best playoff run in history.

 

In history? Oh my.......when are the next Clutch Awards, so I can nominate this for exaggeration of the year (maybe all time?)?

How about Houston winning as a 6 seed in 94-95? That is a better playoff story in my opinion.

 

No offensive rebounds are determined by what sort of a role you play. Kobe has to worry about getting back on defense to care about trying to grab offensive rebounds, since Shaq will never get back in transition, if Kobe and Fish and Fox don't stay back, the Lakers will get killed in transition all the time.

You take Shaq out, give Kobe a bigger rebounding role, and Kobe suddenly starts averaging close to 7 rebounds, plus more than 2 offensive rebounds a game. BTW Kobe did average 8 rebounds last season with Shaq out.

Well you take Kobe's 48% and Vince's 42% out of their respective team's averages and the Raptors and Lakers would have the same field goal percentage. Sure Vince could have 5 assists more per game , very unbiased statement, so Vince could be close to leading the league in assists? Wow why not just count every missed field goal as a possible assist, then point guards would be averaging 20 assists per game.

The Raptors are scrubby yet have 5 players averaging double figures, the Raptors have one of the best frontcourts in the East, a frontcour that a Shaqless Lakers would kill to have.

Ok so you know about what happens in both the Lakers and Raptors locker rooms? Could you be any more biased? I suppose the Lakers with Horace and Ron Harper weren't a veteren team? I Guess the Lakers making Kobe captain means he never deals with his teammates? That is BS, I don't know what happens in the locker rooms, but unlike you I don't pretend to.

Well if his improvement in defense mirrors that of his game I don't see Vince on any all defensive teams in the near future. Vicne has regressed this season, he's soft, and most can see it.

 

Hey, I don't like the Kobe antics any more than I liked the MJ media machine, but I give credit where credit is due.

Sure, if you discount championship runs where he made many of the critical plays, if you discount Kobe's performance with Shaq injured, if you discount the fact Shaq's presence decreases all his stats (rebounds, scoring) save perhaps assists, yeah, ya'll are right, Kobe isn't the best 2 guard. In fact, he is probably the only the 8th or so best swingmen, go ahead and put Pierce, Allen, Finley and Jones ahead of him because they don't play with Shaq.

Another thing ya'll against Kobe overlook is the fact their is no guarantee Carter, T-Mac or AI could co-exist as well with Shaq. Not that Shaq and Kobe's off the court are overly friendly, but they have on the court chemistry. When Shaq is in the game Kobe will focus on other aspects (defense, passing, rebounding) of the game, not sure if the others would.

Again the only guard maybe better than Kobe is the Answer (though I now admit Kobe has probably become better now). Carter, please. He hasn't made it past the semis. And instead of playing next to the likes of journeymen like George Lynch, Roger Bell, Eric Snow, and Hill, he plays (or has played) next to A. Davis, Oakley, Hakeem, Alvin Williams, Jerome Williams, Clark and McGrady. Carter has impressive stats and does some impressive things, but in terms of leadership he hasn't shown much. That is what is holding him back, not his talent. If anyone does emerge as better than Kobe or AI from the guard position, it is likely McGrady. But McGrady also has much to prove as far as elevating the team and getting playoff success.

 

Can I have some of whatever you are smoking?

 

I'd probaly hate Kobe less if he played for a team other than the bandwagon happy lakers and Mr "I only coach superstars" Phil Jackson. I won't deny that he's a great basketball player, but his attitude and arrogance annoy the hell out of me.

Replace Shaq with a chris mihm or greg ostertag type center and you'll see a team with a playoff record similar to the MJ less bulls of the mid 90's. 1st round bounces or 2nd round burnouts.

 

This may be true, it is debatable. But even so, this is as much as Carter or TMac have done with significantly superior talent surrounding them than what Kobe would have if Shaq were replaced with Mihm or Ostertag. Iverson got farther, but when he did, he had a decent amount of talent on his team as well.

 

Shaq didn't win until Phil Jackson came.

 

To be honest with you, I don't really hate kobe bryant very much at all. Dislike would be a better term.

The people I hate are the bandwagon fans who went from wearing Pistons jerseys to bull jerseys to magic jerseys to bull jerseys and now they're wearing lakers jerseys. These idiots and the media/merchandise market that caters to them are the main culprit behind kobe getting so much hype. God forbid they root for a team or player that didn't stand a great chance of going to the finals every year.

Rockets for life!

 

15-1, has there been a better single season playoff record by a team in NBA history? I thought not

You want to overlook the fact the Lakers went 15-1 against four teams that all won 50+ regular season games in their own right? A feat that has never been achieved before.

If it wasn't the best playoff run of all time, it was close.

 

That's so true, but then Phil and the coaching staff are the best at what they do. And they deserve a lot of credit for the Lakers' success, just like Shaq and Kobe do, and to a lesser extent, the role players do as well.

 

Jackson is far and away the best psychological coach in the league but definitely not the best strategic coach. That's why he had Tex Winters with him.

 

No Shaq. Kobe = 23 pts, 15 assts, 11 reb

 

Nice win, the Wizards were on a 13 game win streak with Hamilton in the lineup.

See what I told you, thinking Kobe having Shaq on his team means he gets MORE assists is an outrageous idea. Do you know how much less Kobe touches the ball than he should with Shaq there, how much less aggressive he plays with Shaq there. Of course there will be games like the Bulls one where the "role players" simply stink it up worse than anything and Kobe is left with hardly any assists but the good will outweigh the bad. I think Kobe can average somewhere between 6 and 7 assists if Shaq weren't on his team.

I believe this is the second triple double Kobe has had with Shaq out this season(either that or he missed the Triple Double by 1 assist against Philly). Shaq limits Kobe's overall game. Then again, Shaq turns the Lakers from a decent one man team, to a championship level team. So all hail Shaq.

Again, I think this showed how much Shaq's defensive ability is overrated. Of course with him in they have the potential to be a better defensive team, but then any 7 footer in there would be than what the Lakers have now, but the Lakers are one of the best defensive teams with or without Shaq, Shaq is often a liability due to his laziness and inability to get back on transition, lol at all you people thinking Shaq is responsible for everything the Lakers do. The Lakers really clamped down after the first quarter, they've been playing better defense with Shaq out, and the numbers prove it. Kobe, George, Hunter, Fisher, Fox are all outstanding perimeter defenders, Horry is pretty good, and the Lakers play great team defense, but of course with the lack of height there will be games where the Lakers get abused.