Why Kobe is Overrated, WHy It Takes Two To Win, and Why Hakeem Was The Greatest...

1) Kobe Bryant is overrated, period. He shouldn't even be compared to the likes of Carter, McGrady and Iverson because he doesn't even play the same game...When Kobe plays, he plays with the single most dominant player on the planet, who commands repsect and, more importantly, constant attention from his opponents, both on the floor, and in preparations. This leaves Kobe to face single coverage, and quite often to be left free when his man rotates in to double on O'Neal...Carter, McGrady and Iverson face constant double and occassioanal triple teams, and face teams whose entire preperation is based around how to deny them the ball...I don't know if it made news down in Houston, the message posted above EACH and EVERY Piston's locker on how to play in that night's game was called The Carter Rules...Included stuff like ALWAYS DOUBLE DOWN ON WING, etc...and was ALL about how to pound and stop and deny Carter the ball, and imediatley double him to get it out of his hands.....I mean, that's incredible, and Kobe hasn't seen that kind of concentration marshalled against him since High School, if then...Oh, it's one thing to have Shaq out for 2 or 3 games and go crazy, try keeping it up for the next 40 after that...and the 40 after that...Taking the beating that Carter takes night in and night out...A Recent PHILADELPHIA publication says that if there is a player in the league who takes more pounding night in and night out than Iverson, it would be Carter...and he doesn't get the calls, with whom he is having an ongoing feud...Bill Walton, an annoying announcer but a brilliant basketball analyst in print ( where he tones down his verbiage and melodrama) has said exactly the same thing...Kobe is a great player, don't get me wrong...but as far as scoring, anyone at that level who gets to play one on one all night better damn well put up a bunch of points...Oh, and despite playing with Shaq, which would net me 4 or 5 assists on an average night, he stilll had a worse TO/Asst. rate than Carter or McGrady last year...The guy is so overrated because he doesn't play the same game as they do...He plays one on one...

Second point) It takes 2 to win a championship, which is yet another proof that we have witnessed the greatest single player play in Houston;Olajuwon...Allow me to explain...

Every, and I do mean every championship team of the last 25 years has been won by a team which had one of the if not the best player in the league, and at least one other All-Star Calliber supporting player....except one.

The Showtime Lakers had Magic, Worthy, and KAJ...
The Sixers had Mo Mo Malone, Dr. J, and Mo Cheeks...
The Celtics had Bird and McHale...
The Bad Boys had Isiah and Joe D...
The Bulls had Jordan, Rodman, and Pippen..as wellas Kukoc...
The Spurs had Duncan and the Admiral...
The Latter-Day Lakers have O'Neal and Bryant...
And even Houston's second title had Olajuwon and Drexler...
But in Houston's 1st title, who was their number two guy, their perrenial All-Star, their Pippen, their Bryant, their Dumars, their McHale!?!!?

uh...Otis Thorpe? Robert Horry? the rookie Sam Cassell? Kenny Smith?...Don't get me wrong, they were all fine role players, or better than role players in the future, but at the time...role players...Do you see what I mean? Hakeem did what basketball experts and history says is impossible...He single handedly carried a team, Star-wise, to the top of the heap...It has never been done before in the modern era, likely will never be done again...We should take a moment to realize the historical significance of that achievment, there are literally no comparisons...The Man was, at the time, simply the greatest player we have ever seen, for a two year stretch...

And what's more, it's why guys like Carter and McGrady will never become champions without finding that second star...Hill MIGHT become that for T-Mac, but I'n not sure if anyone in the current raps has the youth, potential and longevity to assume that role, another reason why a trade like Keon Clark/Morris Peterson etc. for Odom, etc. might be in the works...Odom would compliment Carter perfectly...

 

I stated that it is different to be able to do it for a couple of games here or there, it is entirely different to try ad maintain it over the course of a season, as Carter, Iverson, McGrady, 'Nique, etc. who have had to do it maintain, it's the wear that gets you...Also, teams don't devise entirely new defensive schemes during the regular season when Shaq's been out for a game or 2, thus Kobe never faces anything like the Carter Rules...

 

1) If your point is that Otis Thorpe, for one year, was playing at the level of Bryant, Pippen, Dumars, Worthy, Kareem, Robinson, Dr. J, etc...I would dispute that. Hell, Antonio Davis was an All-Star last year, but I don't think anyone would use that to maintain Carter isn't a one-man team...I'm talking about legit, consistent All-Star supporting players, the kind that EVERY OTHER champion forthe last 30 YEARS! has had...

2) Robert Horry? I mean, Robert Horry? He was my favorite Rocket at the time, but come on...you're missing the point. I'm not saying that Hakeem was out there on the court by himself...every champion has had very good supporting players as well, Sean Elliot, Tony Kucoc, Robert Parrish, Byron Scott, Adrian Dantley etc. etc... I'm talking about a whole other level...

3) Jordan? What does that have to do with my argument that Hakeem's the only player to do it without a great supporting player, a top 2 or 3 at his position in the league kind of guy? Something Jordan never did...and besides Jordan WAS during Hakeem's second run, and don't say he wasn't really playing...he'd played a lot more than he's played this year, for instance,and had had 50 point games, etc...Not a real excuse...But still, your point has nothing to do with my argument...

 

1) Re: contact...did you read what the Philly paper sadi about Carter? An impartial source? And re: defense...Every rockets fan, at least, knows how much more a perimiter defender can be aggressive and gamble on defense with a legit shot-blocker/intimidator behind him, something Kobe has always had, and Carter never has, until part of this year when Dream was playing...and when, co-incidentaly, observers were saying how much his defense had 'improved'...Re: better moves and an equal jump shot...Please be more specific...Despite playing against way less defensive attention, last year Kobe shot worse than Carter from behind the 3-point line, and committed significantly more turnovers...His % was better in near the basket, where teams are paying attention to Shaq, and not so much to Antonio Davis...

McGrady is a sgnificantly better individual defender than Bryant, and again, he's on an island, whereas when you watch Bryant play, he's able to overplay his man to one side, press the dribble, etc...all signs of a guy knowing he's got a shotblocker behind him.

2) Re: 2 players makes each other deflate...A) So are you saying that Bryant doesn't get his shots? Numbers wouldn't come close to supporting you...B) Have you read ANYTHING I wrote about Champions for the last 30 years !?!? That's a little too consistent and long-term to just be my pet theory...Having 4 or 5 guys, sometimes even 3 if they're all scorers can 'deflate' a team, but 2 compliment each other by opening it up. Hell, Phil Jackson himself has said that Shaq makes Kobe a LOT better...

3) McGrady vs. Kobe ballhandling/passing...I agree that it's not that close, but not the way you mean...McGrady is a significantly better ball-handler than Bryant, as the numbers attest..Have you ever taken a look at the number of turovers Kobe had last year, or the year before? And as far as assists, how many a game does he get just dumping it to Shaq? Seriously, that's got to be worth 2 or 3 a game more than McGrady gets dumping it to...er..John Amechi...Patrick Ewing...Horace Grant..I mean, don't you think you or I could get 3 or 4 assits a game by just dumping it into O'Neal on the low blocks!?!? In terms of shaot, I agree Bryant might be a bit better, but again, he's not having to force it up against double coverage the way T-Mac is...

4) Iverson...His size inhibits what? I could equally say that, if we're just being relative, Kobe's lack of quickness inhibits him...And re: Shot, again, how do you know? If you've ever played, you know that having to just beat your man is incredibly different than having to beat a double...It's not even close..They can hava one guy press, one loose..they can each take a lane...they can have one guy play man, one ball...it's just night and day...And Byant NEVER sees that consistently..Oh, sure, every now and then EVERY decent player sees it and passes out of it..But when you see it night after night, play after play, your choices are to allow the opposing coach to eliminate you from the game and hope your less than stellar supporters can make him pay, or try and play through it...It's an entirely different game..

 

Oh, well, I didn't realize we were just throwing out opinons here, i thought we were supposed to be supporting them..Ok, what the hell...

Carter is better than kobe...sorry, it's just true...
McGrady is better than Kobe...just a fact...
Iverson is better than Kobe....no doubt about it...
Chocololate is better than Strawberry...just a fact...
There was a 2nd gunman...the way it is...
the Great gatsby is the best American novel ever written...speaks for itself...


Anyways, you get my point....

Getting back to a real discussion...

1) No, Kobe does not play the point, in pretense or practice... See: quote after quote from Shaq, Jackson, KOBE, etc. when Fisher was out with inuury, bemoaning the fact that they were missing their " floor leader" and the "guy who runs our offense" and citing his emergence last year as a "real point guard" as the key to the repeat..Now, I'll grant you that Jackson et al probably haven't been privy to your 'facts', and might succumb to the overwhelming argument they contain...

2) .......ok......one more time.....in the 10 or so games total over the last few years that bryant ha been without Shaq, his numbers have indeed been great....I'm pretty sure I mentioned something about consistency...something about wear..something about teams having defensive schemes designed to seperate player and ball, which are not implemented when the situation will only be in place for a game or two....I'm almost positive...

3) Kobe gets doulbled...occassionally ...So does every other player..I'm not talking about a couple of times a game when the rotation happens to co-incide with the ball swing, or Shaq is sitting...I'm talking about consistently...Watch the Lakers..for Kobe to get iso, all he does is step back,or rotate to a corner...Watch the Sixers...Iverson expends half his energy just trying to get isolated near the elbow, etc...Watch the Raptors..they run screens, thickets, etc. just to get him one-on-one...It's not even close...

i agree we're watching different games...I'm watching the one Phil Jackson is when he says that Shaq makes Kobe a LOT better...

 

No, I'm saying that he's overrated when compared with guys having to expend twice the effort/skill to accomplish the same thing because he plays with the single most dominant player in the league...

It's odd how people will ackowledge,

in general how playing with an O'Neal would make any talented perimiter player better, but whenever it gets to specifics, they suddenly just go " But, well, it doesn't make THAT much of a difference.." Especially Rockets fans...I mean, we are the same guys who watched the likes of Mario Ellie, Robert Horry, Kenny Smith etc. be able to spot up and get open jumper after open jumper because of the attention payed to Hakeem...Imagine if one of those guys had had the talent of a Kobe Bryant..Well, that's what IS happening in Los Angelos...

 

Okay, I am absolutely amazed that anyone who was a Houston Rockets fan during Hakeem's tenure doesn't immediately grasp what I'm saying...Have you just beome Rockets fans, or just during the Championship years, or are your memories failing? Let's review history...

Hakeem enters the league alongside another great player, and...bingo..beat a group of 'winners' to get to the Finals, Hakeem finishes 2nd to Bird in MVP, is acknowledged as the Next Great Thing......Meanwhile, Jordan is busy making a name for himself as a selfish flashy scorer who can't win...

Fast forward...Following a couple of inury plagued and less effective years, Sampson is traded to the Warriors, and Hakeem is left with aging decent but not great supporting players...Bingo...suddenly, the guy can't win...MVP honors? Not even close...I guess his game just went south..the fact that he has no great no. 2 is just a coincidence...In the same vein, Jordan misses almost a whole year, the Bulls get high draft picks, add pippen and grant...and...bingo...suddenly Jordan IS a winner after all...Who'd a thunk it? Years follow, painfull to Rockets fans...Having to listen to all the proclamations that MJ is clearly the best player in the league..look at the numbers, look at the rings...And, worse yet, having to listen to all kinds of talk that Pippen is the 2nd best player...look at everything he does...look at the numbers...look at the rings...How many rings does Hakeem have? Look at the numbers Scottie puts up when MJ's out...can you imagine what he'd do if he had his own team, if he was 'the Man' like Hakeem is!?!? Meanwhile, we Rockets fans have to quietly gnash our teeth, knowing that we've got at least the 2nd best player in the league, bur knowing that Jordan has Pippen, Pippen has Jordan...Seeing the playoffs come, and watching teams just collapse on Hakeem, bang him, bash him, exhaust him...Then hear how he's not a winner...not like Micheal...not like Scottie...

ok...Then comes one special year...Hakeem, the only guy in the last 30 years to do so, manages to carry a team of decent role players and very young but talented players to a Championship...Sure, some will cite MJ's being retired as the key, but how that managed to get the Rockets past their Western Conference foes for the firtst time sine the Twin Towers is never quite explained...And what do we remember about that 1st year? Do we remember Hakeem wheeling and whirling, constantly putting on displays of incredible athleticism...to a degree, but that's mostly during the 2nd run, when he had a great no. 2 that afforded him the freedom..the first year, we mostly remember banging...teams collapsing and hammering an exhausted but indominatable Dream, as he muscles his way past the Ewings, bounces off the Oakleys...goes up and around the Masons..We remember sweat..we remember effort...we remember him carrying the team through force of will, and kicking it out to WIDE OPEN teammates to hit 'clutch' 3-pointers..Do we remember anyone else able to take over the game when Hakeem was off? No, he's on, or we lose..The next year is entirely different..Hakeem is a lot more up and down..When he's down, Drexler can at times take over the game unlike anyone we had the 1st year..When he's up, he simply dominates..he whirls, he twirls, he explodes...because HE CAN..He's got some more freedom..he doesn't have to worry that there is no one else who can carry the team...and he looks a lot better than the 1st year...

But it was the 1st year when he really carried us..He didn't have the highs and lows of the 2nd year..He couldn't get the highs, with the attention, and we couldn't afford the lows, or we wouldn't be talking about a Championship.

And finally the basketball world saw what we had always seen...Hakeem was either the best or 2nd best player on the planet...So, think back...where was 'the heart Of A Champion' all those years when between the Twin Towers and the Rings? Buried in double and triple teams..Sure, Hakeem improved...he learned how to pass out of the double team better, he refined his moves..But MJ improved too, he was just afforded the opportunity alongside a great player who lessened the load..

And Scottie, the Bryant of his day? Well, turns out he was a really good player...also turns out that playing alongside a great player helped him more than it hurt him, and his year without Jordan and his time since have shown that those who said his value was inflated because of only having to carry part of a load were more correct than those who said that it was deflated because of not being able to be the man...

So, when you're talking about how much playing with another quality player helps/hurts you, think back to those years of frustration, watching Hakeem try to overcome constant defensive attention, especially in the playoffs, struggling and wearing down under constant game-plans and physical punishment designed soley to take him out of the game...that's what Carter and McGrady are going through right now...And ,as for Bryant, think back to all the Pippen fans declaring that he was better than Hakeem, better than anyone but Micheal...just look at the rings...

 

I swear I'm about to give up...Let me ask you, do you think playing alongside the single most dominant player in the NBA, a guy who lead another team to the Finals ( alongside another over-rated perimiter player who people were touting as the best at the time) has ANY positive effect on Kobe, or the success the Lakers have had?

ok, but leaving that aside for a moment...Carter is better going to the hoop and from the perimiter..Do you understand how deadly that makes him, on-on-one..if he got to see the single coverage Kobe gets..ok, I'm going backwards...One on one, if the guy is the best at going to the hoop, like Carter AND he shoots over 40% from outside, like VC did last year, he's impssible to stop. What do you play him for, the drive, or the shot? The recent trend, started by guys like Jordan, is to overplay him for the shot, and force him to his left, where the 2nd man picks him up as soon as he puts the ball on the floor... Imagine, overplaying the best dunker in the league for the shot..does that tell you anything, both about how good of a shooter he's become, and how much defenses rely on doubles with him? Okay, defense I WILL give you that Kobe puts out more consistent effort, but that is at least helped by the fact that he doesn't have to expend nearly as much on offense, and that he can gamble a lot more..Passing? Again..does playing with Shaq have ANY benefit, versus playing with Antonio Davis...and he still had way more turnovers last year than VC...and he's averaging just over an assist a game more than Carter..you don't think Shaq is worth one assist a game over Davis!?!?! And rebounding? uh...they are even, in fact I think that Carter is just outrebounding Kobe, despite all the afore-mentioned detriments of not having a Shaq...Although I will give you that Shaq gobbles up more than his share, but I would certainly not say that there is evidence that Kobe is better... Carter is also averaging more blocks and more steals a game than Kobe... The only area where Kobe is clearly ahead is shooting %, which can more than be accounted for by single vs. double coverage and the fact that VC takes so many 3s...Leadership!?!? uh...how do you get that, comparing a guy who LEAD a team which before him had been among the worst in the league to back to back playoffs in his 2nd and 3rd years, to within 1 shot of the ECF's..to a guy who isn't even the leader on his own team...Let's get something straight..At similar points in their careers, in terms of the playoffs...Carter has already done more that Jordan did at the same stage...

McGrady...Same thing..I swear, it's as if Shaq and Kobe put on the same uniform, but other than that have nothing to do with each other..Sure, McGrady didn't win a ring like Kobe did...So I guess that Robert Horry is 4 times the player that Barkley was...Shaq has a real, a tangible, a significant effect on all the things you are citing in Kobe's favour...