Who's the best Franchise or the Kidd

You know, we talk about Steve's turnover problems, but he's only averaging 0.4 more turnovers per game than Kidd is...of course, Kidd is averaging 10 assists per game, but only scoring 14 ppg on...am I reading that correctly? 37.7% shooting? Heck, even Iverson is shooting 39.6%, and he's taken almost 500 more FG attempts than Kidd.

No, I wouldn't trade Steve for Kidd straight up, but I'm still convinced that the Nets would be 7th or 8th in the East without Kidd...He's just a perfect fit for that particular team...

 

Eh, not enough options.

Francis is better than Kidd was in his 3rd year. Kidd is better now. Not really a fair comparison.

 

As DearRock has stated numerous times, traditional statistics are not the true measure of effectiveness in the game of basketball. First and foremost, basketball is a game that has a flow. Some call this momentum. Certain styles of play are condusive to producing positive flow for all members of the team on BOTH ends of the court and other styles are condusive to individualized play. There is no team that can be effective night in and night out when one - possibly two - individuals are relied upon to deliver a victory. It is the responsibilty of the entire team to constantly work together to the ultimate goal, which is victory. The only thing measured by individual stats in this league is salary. Team-conscious players are measured in terms of greatness and this is where Jason Kidd excels. He makes the extra pass in the offensive set, he pushes the ball on the break AND after a make, he demands that his surrounding cast plays as hard as he does night in and night out. When a group fights together there is a greater likeliness that when one member is off, the others will pick up the slack. That is the contribution that Kidd has made to the Nets this year. Once Francis contributes to his own teammates in this fashion, we can start talking about the Rockets as winners.

 

Why not have Mobley take some of the PG duties. He was pretty good in his rookie season when he was not the man. I remember he did a pretty good job. Nobody is going to think he is Payton or anything but the cost of having him share some of the duties maybe small compared with the benefit.

I am thinking of a world, of course, where the rockets are playing up tempo ball and there is serious player and ball movement. I would expect that Francis would get to play some more OG which he is classically skilled to do and is eased up a little of the burden of bring up the ball all the time. It also increases our chances of running as the outlet pass can go to either person to build and finish the break. Mobley is a great handler of the ball and can penetrate and create mismatches almost as much as Francis; and of course he has the outside shot and can finish around the basket. Finally, Mobley is on the verge of being the emotional leader on the team. I may be wrong but I think he is more likely than Francis to go into a teammate's face and let him know that he is not putting out.

 

Mobley had the exact same responsibility Kenny Smith had before him: give it to the post players, and for God's sake, don't screw up.

Quite different from the current situation.

 

comeon. sorry guys, kidd is better.

 

Stevie is not even in Kidds class! I can not even belief you would ask. Maybe in 5 years but right now Kidds is so much better it is not even funny. Kidd is the best PG in the league, Stevie is not even in the top 5 in PGs. Heck he is not even the best PG in Texas, Nash is better.

 

Steve is better than John Stockton at this point in their careers.

 

Go back to the Jazz board, please...

Anyway, Jason Kidd may be the better pure point guard, but I'd rather have the best pure player, which to me is Steve Francis. Is there really anything Steve can't do? He can get to the basket, has the midrange game, is lethal from the perimeter, goes to the line often, and quite simply carries his team. The Rockets are over .500 with Stevie... 1-19 without him. That stat is astounding. Yes, the Nets are now the top seed in the East, but I think Marbury's Nets would've done well also had Kittles, Van Horn, and Martin all been healthy coupled with the additions of Jefferson and Maccullough.

Steve also has similar rebounding numbers to Jason. Yes, Kidd's ability to push and see the floor does counter Steve's edge in scoring. However, when I see two close players, I choose based on who I want in the fourth quarter of a close game. Steve is a better shooter than Jason from the perimeter and midrange, and accordingly can do more in terms of drawing fouls and double teams. Kidd does see the floor better, but how often does that come into play in the final minutes of a close game? You don't often see a cutter wide open around the basket in the closing minutes. Stevie also looks for his teammates when the game is on the line; see the Moochie Norris game winning three against the Knicks as an example.

IMO, the two are very, very close. They both rebound well for point guards. Kidd is better at creating for others and seeing the floor; Steve is better at creating and scoring. They both play decent defense; despite the constant criticism of Steve's defense here, one must consider that Rudy rarely ever plays help defense on perimeter players like most teams do. Rudy leaves his perimeter defenders out to dry sometimes, and focuses on shutting down the paint defensively. In the league today, offensive players are so quick off the dribble that there are few defenders, if any, that can handle them one on one. If Steve can't at times, it doesn't automatically make him a bad defender. It partly comes from the system. Anyway, when you break it down and see a close individual battle such as this, I choose who I'd rather have the ball in the final minutes of a huge game. I'd rather have Stevie.

 

Cat, I couldn't agree more. Kidd may be the better pure point guard, but Steve is the better overall player. I doubt that the Nets will make it past the first round of the playoffs in the east. Kidd's style may lead to wins in the regular season, but his offensive problems will come back to haunt him in the playoffs. Steve has the ability to take over games offensively in the half court or the open court, but Kidd only operates well in a fast break situation. I think theFreak has pointed out in the past that playoff games tend to rely on half court sets rather than fast breaks. Just look at how Phoenix has done in the past with Kidd running the team.

Once Steve embraces defense as Kobe did in the Lakers' first championship season, the Rockets will be unstoppable. With Steve playing defense, the other Rockets will follow, and the team will be a contender.

Once again, Steve may not be the best pure point guard even in Texas, but he IS the second best guard (notice the lack of "shooting" and "point" titles) in the west. Only Kobe is better right now, and Steve could be on his level if he shot a bit more and worked on his defense.

Have I mentioned that Steve's only shortcoming is defense?

 

For this team, when healthy and mature, I think Kidd is the better fit. The reason is that we are loaded with scorers (Mobley, Taylor, Thomas, Griffin). What a team like ours would need is someone who can get the ball to the right person at the right time to make the offense flow properly. That is Jason Kidd (it could be Francis in the future also, but just not yet).

For some teams though, they need more offensive weapons. For example, Cleveland has no real first/second/third scoring options. For a team like that, I think Francis is a better fit. (Andre Miller is in the same mold as Kidd, and that's one reason I think Miller would be a great fit here)

That said, this team ISN'T healthy and certainly isn't mature yet. Taylor's out and Griffin hasn't matured into an offensive force yet, leaving only Mobley and Thomas. So for this current team, I think Francis' scoring ability is a necessary piece of the puzzle. Also, given Francis' youth and the fact that he will improve while Kidd probably won't as much, I'm not sure I would make a trade. Kidd would make the team better next year (if healthy), but I'm not sure he would be as valuable as Francis 3-4 years down the road if Francis grows as a player like we all hope he will.

 

It seems to me there are 2 questions being asked here...

1) According to the thread title, the question is Who (is) the best, Franchise or Kidd....I would have to say Kidd right now, as he A) Plays better defense, and B) Invloves his teammates more

2) In the explanation of this thread, the question was Would I trade Francis for Kidd...Contract and health concerns aside, I wouldn't consider it. Francis' ability, upside, and rate of development thus far are all incredible, and he might just become the kind of PG we've never seen before, a sort of Fat Lever meets Iverson, meets Isiah....

 

At this point in time Kidd is better.

Hopefully Steve matures enough to the point where he will be better than Kidd down the road.

If they were near the same age, I would trade Francis for Kidd.

Kidd is the ultimate team leader and he makes sure everyone is happy.

Can you honestly say the same for Francis? Who does he make better?

Kidd makes 11 other guys on his team better.

Kidd is also a much better defensive player than Stevie. It doesn't matter if Steve gets 25 points and 10 assists a game, if he's giving up that much.

There haven't been too many times this year where Stevie outplayed a good PG. At best, he has stalemated.

 

That's a damn tuff one. .... I like steve better! He's got a crossover. More fun to watch. When was the last time you saw Kidd break soemones ankles and then talk about thier momma on the way to the hoop?

 

Kidd makes others better. Stevie is a better athlete.

I wuld take Kidd, it doesn't make it the right choice but Kidd is a proven player, whereas to this point all Stevie has proven is he can be a hi-lite player on a lottery team.

Again Stevei has a bigge rupside, but I hate potential. SOmetimes potential is achieved, often time it is not.

 

If you discount age, Payton is the best pg in the league then Kidd, then Francis,Davis,and Miller lumped together. Just my opinion.

 

I agree with a lot about what you said in your post, but I do think Francis is a leader. I think he makes just about the whole team better as witnessed by their record, and certainly he makes the shooters better because he draws more attention from the defense.

When the defense goes to Stevie, other guys are open for better shots. Stevie's explosive offensive game helps to draw the defense to him.

Again judging by the record, Stevie makes the whole team better.

 

Obviously, the team wins when Stevie plays.

However, who vastly improves when Steve plays?

I think the 11 other guys basically played the same without him.