Your relationship with God or whatever you believe in

MB: Wow. That is a really interesting post. I too was raised in a conservative Christian family, church and school - Lutheran rather than Baptist. I felt basically as you did. I just kept seeing inconsistencies not just in religion itself, but in how I personally felt about it.

It is VERY difficult and incredibly terrifying to admit that something that has been a source of comfort for so long is now something you aren't even sure is real. I am still searching but I've found that Christianity was ultimately not for me. It may be for you and you may just need to find a new approach (a different church or denomination, for example) or you may just need a new spiritual context and practice altogether.

It is a sign of strength that you are able to see that problems exist for you and your beliefs. It is much more difficult to see the difficulties and face them than it is to ignore them and keep going especially when it comes to matters of spirituality. I know that when I was a born again Christian railing against abortion and playing Christian music, I never in a million years thought I'd be a liberal Buddhist-leaning spiritualist. How could I have?

Keep searching and keep an open mind. You never know what you will find.

 

Hey MB, have you been keeping all this in for a while? It seems like you just exploded. You are not the only one who thinks these things. Every Christian has to come to grips with these important questions. I'm going to use non-textual responses to share my views, but in the end the Word is the ultimate authority.

What is the difference between our God and others? He has proved that He is God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
This proof can stand in a court of law. Other views on other Gods cannot. The validity of this point affects the rest of your questions.

Why does God unfairly choose Jesus as the only way to heaven?
I could never pinpoint what makes it unfair. Accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour is open to everyone and it doesn't cost you any resources. He Himself paid the death penalty for our sins so that we wouldn't have to. Now we make decisions in our life based on His all-knowing, time-independent perspective instead of our own limited understanding. I trust He knows what is fair, since we don't have the capacity to make our own way to Him.

Why doesn't He reveal Himself more to people? He uses general revelation, which is creation and all its sciences plus nature, and special revelation, which is the Bible. I've understood that we are too fragile to meet Him face to face (Moses is an exception I still don't understand) and that miraculous signs aren't always attributed to Him. Even people in the Bible who have had a more direct encounter with Him still did not believe, and we are no different from them. (except the fact that we can explain more)
Right now, His plan is to reveal Himself through the Church in order to promote that fellowship and relationship He wants with us. Later on when the church is gone, the focus will be on fulfilled prophecy(again) and then Jesus Himself(again).

Why is this relationship one-sided? He probably is more justified in asking this than we are. He is the one who came after us first and who continually comes after us. He communicates with us through the Holy Spirit using the bible, prayer, the church, and through circumstances. He also answers us in His perfect timing, meaning when He answers, it will be for more benefit to us than we had even asked for. If you expect Him to answer in a certain way and at a certain time, I can understand why you feel that way. If you're a Christian, make sure you are justified in this claim before making it by knowing you are doing everything you know He wants you to do. (Maturing in your understanding of the Bible, living what you are learning from the Bible, praying earnestly)
Be careful in imposing worldly standards on spiritual matters, spiritual standards make more sense.
(About our activities in Heaven, I doubt anyone has the capabilities to fathom particulars about them. I would assume that 'praising Him 24/7' is the easiest way to describe it, but doesn't really do them justice.)

Why don't I know He's there for me during hard times, and why do I have to ask Him? Actually, this answer is similar to the previous one. He wants you to be active in your relationship with Him. Think of the ways He has been or could be there for you and see if it is true now. There's a purpose for hard times. We aren't in heaven yet.

What do I do about the fakers at church who make me want to fake? If hypocrites make you steer clear, you wouldn't be able to go to many places. Don't be ashamed of who you are, especially around them. Because they are responsible/accountable to you and vice versa, any part of your life or their life that is not pleasing to God is a concern for all. No one is perfect after salvation, but we are called to seek to live perfectly as Jesus did. It's an issue of growth and a process to take bad parts out and put good parts into your life.
(Wine drinking itself is not the sin, it's the sins that too much wine drinking can lead you to commit that are the problem. We're warned about drunkeness many times.)

Why trash other beliefs and condemn them to Hell? Hopefully I treat everyone with respect. I just want to inform them of my Good news that there is hope through Jesus Christ. I wish they could know that I say the things I say because I love them. But I will not compromise my beliefs with theirs because Jesus tells us not to. If I really wanted to condemn them, I would stay silent.

 

Wow MB, it takes me a while to process your take. I have work to do also.

It looks like God accomplished a lot of stuff through you, but who are you giving the praise to? What have you done that deserves any of the glory that is due Him?
I'm guessing you are pretty mature for a Christian, but remember we are aiming for Jesus-type perfection. So this maturation process won't end as long as we live here.
You have a right relationship with Him, He gives you an opportunity to be involved, You accomplish the task through His providence, You come to a deeper understanding of who He is, your relationship with Him grows stronger, He gives you a bigger opportunity...
This maturation cycle will continue on and on, and growth continues. (Growth needed for life.)
Whenever you take your focus off of Him, He waits till you right the relationship, and then you are chugging away again.

So I suggest that you find that thing which is taking your focus off of God and deal with it first. I'm going to assume from your moniker that you might be dealing with a problem with p*rnography. I can tell you from personal experience that p*rn is a huge fellowship killer. It's an addiction on the par with those gained from street drugs, but these drugs are made in our brain. It took me years to overcome it (with God's and the church's help), and it continues to be a temptation for me every so often.
But after righting my relationship with Him, He fills my life with everything He promises and has answered all the questions I've had about Him. I still have more questions, but I have come to the understanding that there are some explanations I won't understand until I know Him more and/or I experience them myself.
I hope I don't sound condescending in this reply. I just want you to know that I've been where you have been.

 

MB:

I'm not going to get into this, largely because I don't want to start a fight... but I do want to say that I appreciate the openness of your post. Too often it seems, people raise issues like these just to be incendiary. This one seemed heart felt.

 

I'm way behind on this thread, but here's what I wrote in response to the first post ...

Wow! I second Jeff's sentiments. The is a very honest post and I hear you. You probably know from the other thread that I didn't grow up in a church, and I currently go to a small non-denomination church, so my context is quite different than yours. I'll speak from my perspective, then, and hopefully some of it will be applicable.

I don't see it quite this way. I believe he want us to have abundant life. (I don't think this means he want us to have an abundance of things, or even to be struggle free in our lives. I do think that he wants us to be full of life and fulfilled on our journey.) I think the core of that abundance is love.

Corinthians 13: 12-13 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

So this I see as the umbrella concept, if you will. I see this as one of the ways God comes to us, and I see this as an outward interacting with the world type of thing as well as an internal contemplative kind of thing. By living this way, and striving to live this way, we are worshipping God. We are living in communion with the spirit. If I could to this 24/7 I would be the happiest man on earth. Sadly, on this part of the journey we all too often stumble into the burden of worldly things. But the next step will be heaven, literally and figuratively, I believe.

Of course going to God with is an important thing to do, but I believe as Christians we are called to carry each other through tough times. Churches that don't practice this kind of care and compassion, even with their own people, are places I have a very hard time with and stay away from. Of course, I don't know the context your speaking of, but I have seen this and I have a strong negative reaction to it. If this is true of your church, I would suggest you find a different church.

Sometimes, in my experience, God steps back and lets us learn our own lessons, like a father with child. I guess this is where free will comes in too. He doesn't direct our every step. A father can tell a child not to pull the dog's tail, but the child has it in his head that he wants to do it. At some point the father may let the child do it, and get bitten, to learn his own lesson. But the father won't be standing too far away, to make sure the child doesn't get too badly hurt. Sometimes the lesson isn't nearly as short and sweet. Some of mine took years, (and I probably have a couple ongoing ones at the moment), but in the light of day, I could see that God was there all along, although that sure wasn't clear to me as I was going through it. If you haven't experienced this kind of thing before, this may sound kind of harsh, but if you have, you'll probably get what I'm talking about. I could go on about this, so send me an email if you want to chat more about it.

Have you always felt this way about your relationship with God, or is this just how it has been lately? I would respond differently depending on which it is.

With God it is more of a father son than a 50/50 wouldn't you say? With your fellow Christians it is 50/50 though, or should be.

I probably tried 10 different churches before I found one I liked. Don't be afraid to look around. Being Christian is not about being perfect, and it is explicitly not about being judgmental. We all stray in these areas to a certain extent, but some churches stray way too far in this direction. This has been true throughout church history, and is clearly spoken of in the bible. (In Corinthians, amongst other places.) Matthew 23 speaks in no uncertain terms about how Jesus feels about this. You won't find perfection anywhere, but if your church is excessively this way, find another one. As for the specifics, Romans 14 speaks clearly to this.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...e=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=off
It's not what you do that's important, it's where your heart is when doing it. I persoanlly have a problem with the WWF, but I'm not going to condemn you for it (although I might as you a few questions about how you perceive it, ) I watch many secular movies and I listen to secular music, but I am listening to a lot of good Christian music now. Tell me what kind you like and I can give you a few suggestions. As a final point here I would say that if you feel condemned for drinking and hanging out with the wrong people, you are in good company.
Matthew 11
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

It's not really a question of doing good, because we ultimately find that we can't be good enough. It's a question of faith. The spiritual journey to that faith is essentially and internal one, in my experience. The extent to which one needs to know Jesus is a very hot topic. I know people who knew very little about Jesus when they had their spiritual realisation, but when they pursued it, they found it to be the spirit of God. Even the bible says that we can all know that there is a God by what we see around us:
Romans 1
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
It even says that Abraham was justified by faith, before Christ was born.
Romans 4
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Ultimately, I say an individual should seek spiritual truth, (and that includes not precluding the possibility that God is the God of the bible.) I took that journey, and I found God to be the God of the bible, and Jesus to be the person we are told he is in the bible … "and that has made all the difference."

 

If you had lived 1000 or so years ago, and could draw, the Church might have put you to work illuminating manuscripts instead. Droleries and marginalia are riddled with pornographic images. It is just a part of humanity.

MB,

I agree with the others...what a way to open yourself up. I offer no specific, line by line advice. I do not profess to have all the answers, nor do I think that you should be told "the" answers by others. You, ultimately, must look to yourself and what you think is the way to enlightenment...see where that takes you (new, or full-circle, whatever).

 

Awareness

by Anthony de Mello


Don't know what you guys will think of it, if you actually decide to read it, but it really spoke to me and seconded a lot of things that I had been thinking at different points in my life, and helped me to put things together in more of a picture.

It was written by a Jesuit Priest that has since passed.

MB, you might get a kick out of it.

 

I BELIEVE IN THIS:

THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH,
MUHAMMAD IS THE MESENGER OF ALLAH.

 

I thought it was translated, "There is no God but God and Mohammed is his prophet."

 

Wow, really thought provoking. I was raised in a church family, but turned my back when I knew that would bring more worldy pleasure. Eventually I didn't find what I was looking for and returned to God. My life has been so much more wonderful since I have been turning my life and will over to God.

Here are some of my thoughts, take them for what they are worth.

God is always there for you, but its not always a burning bush. To me, God reveals himself all over. He has put people in my life to do his work. My friends, family, etc. are there for me. If you live a spiritual life, you will see the rewards everywhere. God never gives you more than you can handle.

Often our prayers to God are "please help me " prayers. You are asking for a 50/50 relationship, but what do you do daily for your 50%? You may have heard faith without works is dead. Again, for me, when I am in a spiritual frame of mind, I see his blessing all around.

Many may ask what is his will. To me, it is going to work everyday, living an honest life, helping my fellow man, become a living example of Christs love. When I put my whole heart into these things, everything else seems to fall into place.

Organized religion is a tough topic. The problem with it is it is made up of humans. Humans by nature are sinners. I try not to place too much on what others in church are doing. Judge not, ye, ye be judged. Its not my concern what others are doing. My relationship with God is mine. It's no one elses but mine. I can look in the mirror every morning and that's fine with me.

I don't see what's wrong with any of that. You might want to search for a different church. None of what you mentioned is a sin. People in the bible drank. Jesus turned water into wine for a wedding party since they ran out of wine. Drinking alcohol is not a sin. It sounds like you might want to try some different churches. Your relationship with God should be personel. When you have a personal relationship, many other things fall into place.

Just do the right thing. Most know in their head what is right and wrong. We are human, no one is perfect. A famous quote sums it up for me, "We claim spiritual progress, not perfection."

He is all over the place. Once you get into a spiritual state of mind, you will see. I see wonders of God everyday. No burning bushes, but miracles none the less.

I might have gone overboard, but I am so blessed these days. God is a big part of my life, I owe everything to him. It wasn't always like that for me, so my feeling are even stronger.

I read a passage one day, and I believed it was written for me. Since then, I turn my will and life over to God every morning.

Matthew 5:3-10
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

In all honesty, I have a horrible relationship with him. Part of it because, like many, I took the road of not believing for a long time. Then there was the just not knowing phase. Now, I'm pretty sure there is someone over us, but I'm not sure exactly in what sense and how he works, etc.

The other part is, an no offense to anyone here, I've had bad experiences with Christians. I was baptized Lutheran, which is what my mom's family is. My dad's family is Catholic, and his mother refused to go to my baptism if it was during Lutheran church. As a result, I was baptized after the service. What a way to start, right?

My main beef is the mentality of the Christians I've encountered. I have no real problem with the majority of them. It's the ones who think they are self righteous and try to force their religion on you or other people of other religions. And in my church, going to church was never enough. You had to be in choir or bible study or this or that group to be accepted as well. It seemed like a lot of hipocracy to me.

I asked my mom about her beliefs one day, since she ultimately stopped taking us to church. She said she has always believed in God but she worships him in her own way. Going to church isn't the only way to be saved. It's about loving Him and knowing Him and accepting Him. The reason she could do that is because she was raised like that and formed her opinions as an adult. It was hard for me as a child/young adult to take that stance and still believe when I hadn't had much experience with it in general. But now, I do agree with what she says.

I don't know what I believe, but I believe in something. I've really enjoyed hearing other people's ideas, learning about other religioins and trying to figure things out.