In Defense Of Glen Rice...and other related myths...

JAG · Feb 6, 2002

Okay, the record will show that I was very against our acquisition of Rice from the get go, and his having been on the injured list for quite a while would hardly call for a post about him at this time, except...

I keep hearing this seemingly flawed logic circulated about the move to get Rice...

' It's a good move, even though he's played poorly, because it SAVES us money, because his contract is for less than Shandon Andersons...'

While it may be true that SA is overpaid, that would matter to us only if we were somehow obligated to have signed him to that deal..We weren't, were we? I mean, it;s not like our only two options were to overpay for Rice or overpay for Anderson, were they? Is there some Byzantine ruling in the collective bargaining agreement stipulating that you have to acquire at least one bloated contract a year?

But all this seemingly erroneous defense of getting Rice has made me sit and think, and review game film, and scratch my chin, and sit some more...and you know what? I've come to some interesting conclusions about Rice...he's not nearly as bad at some things as I thought...

For example, everyone goes on about what a bad defender he is, and while I agree that he's no great shakes, he's not nearly as bad as his rep, and his adjustments to his lack of defensive ability should be noted, for they prevent things from being much worse. One thing he has done is to achieve a sort of buddhist peacefullness about his inablity to stop anyone..Other less wise fellows might get really upset about being beaten like a rug night after night...They might rant or steam, and this could have an adverse effect on the atmosphere in the clubhouse...But not Glen, no he's way beyond that kind of wasted emotion. He seems totally at peace with not being able to stop anyone, and as such causes nary a stir when he gets lit up on any given evening...

Another 'weakness' of Rice's is reputed to be his remarkably poor rebounding for a man his size. While a purist would look at the numbers an be tempted to agree that this reputation is deserved, a keener examination of those games Glen was with us reveal a whole other side to the matter. When a shot goes up, and Rice is in the vicinity of the backboard, he quickly and calmly surveys the scene like a master strategist, and whereas some lesser player might be tempted to try and bump and shove to get into position for the rebound, Glen immediately gets the heck out of there, thereby never running the risk of getting in the way of one of his more rambunctious but less wise teammates. I mean, what is more demoralizing for a team than to have 2 or 3 teammates fight for the same rebound, only to lose it out of bounds? And the record will show that nary a time this season did Rice cause us to lose a ball by his over-exertion. You just can't measure the effect of this kind of floor savvy in simple numbers...

And in terms of his poor conditioning, well, yes, a superficial observer might look at the fact that he came into camp out of shape and soon developed an injury often associated with being in poor condition, and conclude that he could have lessened the risk of such an occurence by working out, and at least making an effort to 'earn' his huge salary, those simpletons are overlooking a simple fact: Glen Rice's best work the past couple of years has been done while sitting. I mean, the previous points show how much thought and strategizing Rice puts into the game, and this takes precious time...Oh, sure, he could have gone the traditional route and come to camp in shape, but at what cost? Would he have lost his unique grasp of when and where to allow your man to blow by you on the left or right, thereby making his path to the basket quicker, and lessening the odds that some frisky younger teammate will foolishly foul the man in an effort to prevent the bucket? Too much of that, and we'd have everyone fouling out...No, the kind of grasp of these subtle nuances of the game don't just come overnight, and I say that if Rice spent his time in the offseason contemplating these kinds of things, instead of hitting the weights, so much the better...Besides, now that he's officially on the IR, he can devote himself full time to his studies, and maybe he could teach the rest of the Rockets in On-Court Energy Conservation, or whatever...I mean, he hasn't actually been a good scorer for a few years, so he's had to expand his contributions to the team...

So for all of you out there who are still very upset at getting Rice, I say let's look at it differently...What if we were stuck with some over-eager, rebounding, fit player who actually breaks a sweat on defense? What kind of example would that be on our younger players? But at least let's not try and pretend that we only had the option of Rice or Anderson's contract...Rather, let's appreciate what we have got here, and leave the whining to those who don't see the game within the game...

Dream Sequence · Feb 6, 2002

I would like to also add my thoughts on our $10 MM player:

He is great model for players thinking of trying drugs. He shows 2 things: 1) How to have a relaxed demeanor without taking drugs and 2) if he is taking drugs, how to avoid getting caught. Perhaps if we had traded for him a year earlier, he might have had enough time to work with Mo and discouraged his activities

He is very considerate of his teammates self-esteem. Consequently, he allows his defensive assignment to score relentlessly in order to prevent Francis' or Mobley's defensive liabilities from being exposed. A perfect example would be the Seattle Houston game where Desmond Mason made Rice look like an inmate's girlfriend. Alas, on the bench, he can do nothing to prevent Nash, Marbury, ad nauseum from lighting up Houston.

The Cat · Feb 6, 2002

' It's a good move, even though he's played poorly, because it SAVES us money, because his contract is for less than Shandon Andersons...'

The Rockets were set to sign Shandon Anderson to a five year deal worth about 27 million dollars before the Rice trade came to focus. You can play fantasy GM all you want, but the Rockets were going to have one or the other. In a way, they were obligated to make a deal, because they need to put a winning product on the floor for the fans, and committing to Walt Williams isn't exactly that. If you bring back Shandon, the Rockets come off as committed to developing their young players. If you trade for Rice, you've landed a big name who can help you win now. If you pass up both for Walt Williams, well, the perception is that you're not trying hard to win, and that could make a poor ticketing problem even worse. By the way, even if we had let Shandon walk, the most cap room we could've possibly had for this summer was about 5.5 million. The exception is worth 4.5. Not much difference.

He seems totally at peace with not being able to stop anyone, and as such causes nary a stir when he gets lit up on any given evening...

And screaming is supposed to help you play defense? Look at Tim Duncan, you don't have to be Mr. Emotion to be effective.

Another 'weakness' of Rice's is reputed to be his remarkably poor rebounding for a man his size.

For his career, Rice averages 4.6 rebounds per game in about 35 minutes. His numbers from the last two seasons before this also are in that range. I don't consider this season to be a good argument because it's too small of a sample size. Anyway, don't most 6'8 small forwards get around 4.6 rebounds in 35 minutes? Rose averages about one board less, Carter about one board more.

And in terms of his poor conditioning, well, yes, a superficial observer might look at the fact that he came into camp out of shape and soon developed an injury often associated with being in poor condition

You were at training camp? You know he was in poor shape? Shouldn't we leave that diagnosis to the Rockets doctors? Also, someone in "poor shape" couldn't have made it close to playing 75 out of 82 games last season, while dealing with a painful PF problem.

BTW, do you somehow think that these issues haven't been discussed before? Or have we had too much time before another _____ player sucks thread?

Moe · Feb 6, 2002

What a load of crap, Jag. You give all the credit to Glen Rice when the simple fact of the matter is that all Glen Rice did was get to Houston and take a look at how Walt was getting by and tried his best to copy him.

Walt is the innovator. Rice is the wannabe.

JAG · Feb 6, 2002

Originally posted by The Cat
' It's a good move, even though he's played poorly, because it SAVES us money, because his contract is for less than Shandon Andersons...'

The Rockets were set to sign Shandon Anderson to a five year deal worth about 27 million dollars before the Rice trade came to focus. You can play fantasy GM all you want, but the Rockets were going to have one or the other. In a way, they were obligated to make a deal, because they need to put a winning product on the floor for the fans, and committing to Walt Williams isn't exactly that. If you bring back Shandon, the Rockets come off as committed to developing their young players. If you trade for Rice, you've landed a big name who can help you win now. If you pass up both for Walt Williams, well, the perception is that you're not trying hard to win, and that could make a poor ticketing problem even worse. By the way, even if we had let Shandon walk, the most cap room we could've possibly had for this summer was about 5.5 million. The exception is worth 4.5. Not much difference.

**Interesting that you point out that,not being in camp, I couldn't tell whether or not Rice was pudgy,when that just might be apparent to the naked eye, whereas you are apparently privy to the Rockets upper management negotiations, so much so that something not signed is to be deemed inevitable, and thereby justify another bad move...The other point is that, a bad move made instaed of another bad move doesn't make it a good one...**

He seems totally at peace with not being able to stop anyone, and as such causes nary a stir when he gets lit up on any given evening...

And screaming is supposed to help you play defense? Look at Tim Duncan, you don't have to be Mr. Emotion to be effective.

** Uh, I think you missed the point. Some might conclude that I was insinuating that he doesn't really put that much effort into his defense...***

Another 'weakness' of Rice's is reputed to be his remarkably poor rebounding for a man his size.

For his career, Rice averages 4.6 rebounds per game in about 35 minutes. His numbers from the last two seasons before this also are in that range. I don't consider this season to be a good argument because it's too small of a sample size. Anyway, don't most 6'8 small forwards get around 4.6 rebounds in 35 minutes? Rose averages about one board less, Carter about one board more.

** No, I do not agree that most 6'8' starting SF's averaging 35 mins a game get the just over 4 rebs he's been averaging the last few years...Rose has played all kinds of 1 and 2 in addition to 3, and he's nowhere near a thick as Rice. Carter plays sg...**

And in terms of his poor conditioning, well, yes, a superficial observer might look at the fact that he came into camp out of shape and soon developed an injury often associated with being in poor condition

You were at training camp? You know he was in poor shape? Shouldn't we leave that diagnosis to the Rockets doctors? Also, someone in "poor shape" couldn't have made it close to playing 75 out of 82 games last season, while dealing with a painful PF problem.

** I have mentioned that I think his poor conditioning was obvious, and what is more, I and others mentioned it BEFORE he went down. Also, his minutes last year were way below his career average, and he has said that his PF was a cause..And I don't see the connection between conditioning and someone's pain threshhold...**

BTW, do you somehow think that these issues haven't been discussed before? Or have we had too much time before another _____ player sucks thread?
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** I DID say why I brought it up here and now, because of the re-occurring apologists for the move,and besides, I thought it was kinda funny....Knee jerk reactionism to post you label "_______ player sucks" are just as narrow minded as the need to post them in the first place...**

JAG · Feb 6, 2002

Originally posted by Moe
What a load of crap, Jag. You give all the credit to Glen Rice when the simple fact of the matter is that all Glen Rice did was get to Houston and take a look at how Walt was getting by and tried his best to copy him.

Walt is the innovator. Rice is the wannabe.
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but you'd then at least have to give him credit for going to the mountain...

Moe · Feb 6, 2002

Originally posted by JAG

but you'd then at least have to give him credit for going to the mountain...
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Okay, I can live with that.

The Cat · Feb 6, 2002

**Interesting that you point out that,not being in camp, I couldn't tell whether or not Rice was pudgy,when that just might be apparent to the naked eye, whereas you are apparently privy to the Rockets upper management negotiations

No, but Jonathen Feigan I would consider to be more reliable than either of us, and what I said came straight from his articles.

Uh, I think you missed the point. Some might conclude that I was insinuating that he doesn't really put that much effort into his defense...

My mistake. It sounded like you were judging this based on his lack of expression, but again apparently not. I disagree, but there's no way to prove or disprove this, so no point continuing.

No, I do not agree that most 6'8' starting SF's averaging 35 mins a game get the just over 4 rebs he's been averaging the last few years...Rose has played all kinds of 1 and 2 in addition to 3, and he's nowhere near a thick as Rice. Carter plays sg...

Well, Peterson isn't a great rebounder either, and he would play SF if you call Carter a SG. Latrell Sprewell doesn't grab a lot of rebounds. Neither do Glenn Robinson, Tim Thomas, Rick Fox, and many of your other small forwards who serve as spot up shooters from the outside (at least in one role). And no, Rice's career averages of about 4.6 rebounds in 34 minutes is not drastically different from the 5.5 that Robinson averages. Don't tell me 0.9 points is the difference between a decent rebounder and a very poor rebounder.

I have mentioned that I think his poor conditioning was obvious, and what is more, I and others mentioned it BEFORE he went down.

This BBS, more than any others, tries to come up with an excuse for everything. If a player isn't playing well, it can't be because he's not adjusted, or just not making shots. It always ends up being no hustle, no heart, out of shape, etc. It is possible that he was in poor shape, but based on what I've seen in the last year, I don't know how valid this argument would be.

Also, his minutes last year were way below his career average, and he has said that his PF was a cause..And I don't see the connection between conditioning and someone's pain threshhold...*

He said that for personal pride, most likely. I can't really imagine a way to get him more than 29 minutes a game with Allan Houston and Latrell Sprewell both on the team.

And I don't see the connection between conditioning and someone's pain threshhold...

If Rice was in terrible shape and playing through a bad injury, I highly doubt he could produce what he did. Say what you will, but most Knicks fans will recognize him as a solid contributor last season.

I DID say why I brought it up here and now, because of the re-occurring apologists for the move,and besides, I thought it was kinda funny....Knee jerk reactionism to post you label "_______ player sucks" are just as narrow minded as the need to post them in the first place...

Your explanation covered the first part of your post, which discussed the value of the contracts. The reason you gave, which was "' It's a good move, even though he's played poorly, because it SAVES us money, because his contract is for less than Shandon Andersons...' ", has everything to do with money and nothing to do with performance on the floor. Adding all of that wasn't necessary in the least. We know Rice is hurt, we know you and others don't like him, and it doesn't exactly enhance your original argument. You're piling on with the rest of it.

Francis3 · Feb 6, 2002

JAG - Here is a tip, DONT EVER ARGUE WITH THE MASTER OF THE BBS. The "Almighty" Cat will always come back with something better.

Case Closed. The Cat wins

drpepper · Feb 6, 2002

Some people have WAAAAYY too much time.

JAG · Feb 6, 2002

Originally posted by The Cat
**Interesting that you point out that,not being in camp, I couldn't tell whether or not Rice was pudgy,when that just might be apparent to the naked eye, whereas you are apparently privy to the Rockets upper management negotiations

No, but Jonathen Feigan I would consider to be more reliable than either of us, and what I said came straight from his articles.

Uh, I think you missed the point. Some might conclude that I was insinuating that he doesn't really put that much effort into his defense...

My mistake. It sounded like you were judging this based on his lack of expression, but again apparently not. I disagree, but there's no way to prove or disprove this, so no point continuing.

No, I do not agree that most 6'8' starting SF's averaging 35 mins a game get the just over 4 rebs he's been averaging the last few years...Rose has played all kinds of 1 and 2 in addition to 3, and he's nowhere near a thick as Rice. Carter plays sg...

Well, Peterson isn't a great rebounder either, and he would play SF if you call Carter a SG. Latrell Sprewell doesn't grab a lot of rebounds. Neither do Glenn Robinson, Tim Thomas, Rick Fox, and many of your other small forwards who serve as spot up shooters from the outside (at least in one role). And no, Rice's career averages of about 4.6 rebounds in 34 minutes is not drastically different from the 5.5 that Robinson averages. Don't tell me 0.9 points is the difference between a decent rebounder and a very poor rebounder.

I have mentioned that I think his poor conditioning was obvious, and what is more, I and others mentioned it BEFORE he went down.

This BBS, more than any others, tries to come up with an excuse for everything. If a player isn't playing well, it can't be because he's not adjusted, or just not making shots. It always ends up being no hustle, no heart, out of shape, etc. It is possible that he was in poor shape, but based on what I've seen in the last year, I don't know how valid this argument would be.

Also, his minutes last year were way below his career average, and he has said that his PF was a cause..And I don't see the connection between conditioning and someone's pain threshhold...*

He said that for personal pride, most likely. I can't really imagine a way to get him more than 29 minutes a game with Allan Houston and Latrell Sprewell both on the team.

And I don't see the connection between conditioning and someone's pain threshhold...

If Rice was in terrible shape and playing through a bad injury, I highly doubt he could produce what he did. Say what you will, but most Knicks fans will recognize him as a solid contributor last season.

I DID say why I brought it up here and now, because of the re-occurring apologists for the move,and besides, I thought it was kinda funny....Knee jerk reactionism to post you label "_______ player sucks" are just as narrow minded as the need to post them in the first place...

Your explanation covered the first part of your post, which discussed the value of the contracts. The reason you gave, which was "' It's a good move, even though he's played poorly, because it SAVES us money, because his contract is for less than Shandon Andersons...' ", has everything to do with money and nothing to do with performance on the floor. Adding all of that wasn't necessary in the least. We know Rice is hurt, we know you and others don't like him, and it doesn't exactly enhance your original argument. You're piling on with the rest of it.
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I've never figured out how to reply to posts within the original quotes, so I'll do it this way...

1) Were Jonathan Feigan even to prove invariably correct, whic I would readily argue, it still wouldn't make a bad move out of a good one. You could argue that, if JF's right, the bad move would have been over-evaluating SA, and then trading him for another bad contract, but what you're still left with is a bad move. Moreover, if the Rockets did indeed deem SA so valuable that he had to be kept, even if it meant over-paying him, why did they trade him?

2) I'm not asking you to defend your opinion of whether or not Rice puts in full effort on defense, as you say, that's hard to do, but I am asking you to clarify...Do you honestly think that he does? Just for my own knowledge...

3) Yes, Peterson plays SF when healthy....and he was in his 2nd year when he got hurt, and his minuted were a lot below 35/game...and he still rebounded better than Rice...AND, what is more, the few examples you've given with the exception of the Bucks, they all play with rebounding frontcourts of a, well, slightly better quality than were the Rockets at the time Rice was playing...Guys like Shaq, Antonio Davis, Jermaine O'Neal etc. gobble up a lot more than did Cato et al at the time Rice went down. And those guys still post better rebounding numbers than Rice...And who on earth has said that Robinson is a decent rebounder for his size? In fact, he's kind of like a mid-range version of what Rice used to be; deadly shooter, but very one-dimensional...and he still averages a board a game more than Rice. If the best that you can say about your rebounding at 6-8, 240 is that your almost as good as Glen Robinson......

4) Ok, how do you know that Rice's sole motivation for blaming his lack of minutes on his PF is just covering his pride? For someone who tried to take a shot at me when I said he was out of shape earlier, suggesting that I wasn't at camp, you sure play fast and loose with your speculations.

5) I completely disagree with you about what Knicks fans thought about Rice last year, and the fact that most of the reactions to the trade at the time we got him was that they had 'unloaded' him on us further illustrates this point. RIce was, by and large, not at all popular during his tenure in New York.

6) Ok, where are the rules stipulating that a post can only make one point...I said that the first point, about his contract, had got me thinking about the other points. It still seems remarkable to me, the more I think of it...I mean, if you don't play defense, don't rebound, don't run the offense, and don't score, ) or even shoot that much, for that matter, as Rice didn't this season) what exactly are you doing to occupy your time on the court? I'm serious...

JAG · Feb 6, 2002

Originally posted by Francis3
JAG - Here is a tip, DONT EVER ARGUE WITH THE MASTER OF THE BBS. The "Almighty" Cat will always come back with something better.

Case Closed. The Cat wins
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LOL..Thanks for the tip...I'll take my chances...

JAG · Feb 6, 2002

Originally posted by drpepper
Some people have WAAAAYY too much time.
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Meaning? Oh...I see, you're saying that all of us spending so much time discussing the relative merits of a group of grown men jostling and jumping in order to put a round ball through a hoop, whose outcome will have no direct effect on our lives, careers, or families should spend our time more usefully, like with our families or contemplating the meaning of life and what purpose, if any, we are to serve on this planet...That's a good point, and worthy of consideration...You're going to laugh, but at first I actually thought you just meant that comment with reference to this thread, and as that would be an obviously absurd application of random judgement, I do ask for your forgiveness. I mean, can you imagine if someone who tunes ina nd spends a fair amount of time devoted to reading/writing about a basketball team were to judge someone else's life priorities because one particular manifestation of this weird fandom we all share wasn't to their liking?! THAT would be myopically sophomoric, and, again, I apologize for my initial assumption...

The Cat · Feb 6, 2002

Moreover, if the Rockets did indeed deem SA so valuable that he had to be kept, even if it meant over-paying him, why did they trade him?

Because, as Rudy said in the press conference, they coveted Glen Rice for quite a while.

2) I'm not asking you to defend your opinion of whether or not Rice puts in full effort on defense, as you say, that's hard to do, but I am asking you to clarify...Do you honestly think that he does? Just for my own knowledge...

Yes, I think he tries, I just don't think he has the lateral quickness right now to be a good defender.

And who on earth has said that Robinson is a decent rebounder for his size? In fact, he's kind of like a mid-range version of what Rice used to be; deadly shooter, but very one-dimensional...and he still averages a board a game more than Rice. If the best that you can say about your rebounding at 6-8, 240 is that your almost as good as Glen Robinson......

I've never heard anyone criticizing his rebounding, so I just assumed that people thought he was fine. Personally, I love Glenn Robinson-- one of my favorite players in the NBA-- and if Rice can even bring some of what Big Dog brings to the court I'll be thrilled.

4) Ok, how do you know that Rice's sole motivation for blaming his lack of minutes on his PF is just covering his pride? For someone who tried to take a shot at me when I said he was out of shape earlier, suggesting that I wasn't at camp, you sure play fast and loose with your speculations.

Again, I said this as speculation. However, do you really see a way for Rice to have played more than 29 minutes per game last year, considering the Knicks already had Houston and Sprewell on the wings? Rice cannot consistently play power forward, and none of the three can consistently play the point.

5) I completely disagree with you about what Knicks fans thought about Rice last year, and the fact that most of the reactions to the trade at the time we got him was that they had 'unloaded' him on us further illustrates this point. RIce was, by and large, not at all popular during his tenure in New York.

Hmm... maybe you're right-- I just went around to a few Knicks boards on the web, and most of them seemed to respect the job he did and were somewhat sad to lose him. Of course, that's a small sample size, so it may not be representative of the city as a whole.

6) Ok, where are the rules stipulating that a post can only make one point...I said that the first point, about his contract, had got me thinking about the other points. It still seems remarkable to me, the more I think of it...I mean, if you don't play defense, don't rebound, don't run the offense, and don't score, ) or even shoot that much, for that matter, as Rice didn't this season) what exactly are you doing to occupy your time on the court? I'm serious...

Glen, in this offense, was brought in to primarily be a spot up shooter to spread the floor. He had little to no training camp or practice, played through injuries, and possibly as a result ran into the slump he had for the first couple of months of the season. Slumps happen to all shooters, especially when they're trying to play through pain, and when a shooter is in one they don't end up being that useful. You just have to hope Glen gets well and is ready to play next season.

JAG · Feb 6, 2002

Originally posted by The Cat
Moreover, if the Rockets did indeed deem SA so valuable that he had to be kept, even if it meant over-paying him, why did they trade him?

Because, as Rudy said in the press conference, they coveted Glen Rice for quite a while.

2) I'm not asking you to defend your opinion of whether or not Rice puts in full effort on defense, as you say, that's hard to do, but I am asking you to clarify...Do you honestly think that he does? Just for my own knowledge...

Yes, I think he tries, I just don't think he has the lateral quickness right now to be a good defender.

And who on earth has said that Robinson is a decent rebounder for his size? In fact, he's kind of like a mid-range version of what Rice used to be; deadly shooter, but very one-dimensional...and he still averages a board a game more than Rice. If the best that you can say about your rebounding at 6-8, 240 is that your almost as good as Glen Robinson......

I've never heard anyone criticizing his rebounding, so I just assumed that people thought he was fine. Personally, I love Glenn Robinson-- one of my favorite players in the NBA-- and if Rice can even bring some of what Big Dog brings to the court I'll be thrilled.

4) Ok, how do you know that Rice's sole motivation for blaming his lack of minutes on his PF is just covering his pride? For someone who tried to take a shot at me when I said he was out of shape earlier, suggesting that I wasn't at camp, you sure play fast and loose with your speculations.

Again, I said this as speculation. However, do you really see a way for Rice to have played more than 29 minutes per game last year, considering the Knicks already had Houston and Sprewell on the wings? Rice cannot consistently play power forward, and none of the three can consistently play the point.

5) I completely disagree with you about what Knicks fans thought about Rice last year, and the fact that most of the reactions to the trade at the time we got him was that they had 'unloaded' him on us further illustrates this point. RIce was, by and large, not at all popular during his tenure in New York.

Hmm... maybe you're right-- I just went around to a few Knicks boards on the web, and most of them seemed to respect the job he did and were somewhat sad to lose him. Of course, that's a small sample size, so it may not be representative of the city as a whole.

6) Ok, where are the rules stipulating that a post can only make one point...I said that the first point, about his contract, had got me thinking about the other points. It still seems remarkable to me, the more I think of it...I mean, if you don't play defense, don't rebound, don't run the offense, and don't score, ) or even shoot that much, for that matter, as Rice didn't this season) what exactly are you doing to occupy your time on the court? I'm serious...

Glen, in this offense, was brought in to primarily be a spot up shooter to spread the floor. He had little to no training camp or practice, played through injuries, and possibly as a result ran into the slump he had for the first couple of months of the season. Slumps happen to all shooters, especially when they're trying to play through pain, and when a shooter is in one they don't end up being that useful. You just have to hope Glen gets well and is ready to play next season.
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So do you think that when he did have lateral quickness, he was a good defender? Or he never had it? Or his No-D rep was only earned during the last year or so? You are entitled to any and all of these opinions, I just want to know your opinion.

I'm not crazy about Robinson, and that's not just because he killed the Jayhawks a few years back, but I agree that he brings a lot more now than Rice does. I'm just not crazy about one-dimensional players, even ones who are great at the one thing they do, like Robinson is or Rice was. To me, if a guy's a terrible defender, rebounder, ballhandler, etc. but he's a great scorer, it's at most a wash...and if he slips in the one thing he brings, like Rice has and Robinson will, what are you left with?

Woops...hit the wrong key...Ok, where was I? Re: the Knicks...Well, they often went with the 'Big Backcourt' 2-3 years ago to accomodate Latrell, Houston and LJ, so it can be assumed that that was a possibility, unless Charlie Ward or Chris Childs had suddenly become invaluable to their team. Besides, the situation was similar in L.A., in terms of minutes, and Rice would have been fighting with Fox and Horry for time, not Spree and Houston...Not chopped liver either, but you get my point...

re: His slump. If you look back, before the injury, I was amongst those stating that Rice would probably come out of his slump to a degree. I don't think that good a shooter can lose it that badly that quickly, although if you look at film of him in his prime, he was carrying a LOT less weight, and thus getting more lift. Shooters, (with the exception of Del Curry, who seems to flip the ball with his wrists) shoot with their legs, and if he lets himself get that out of shape, his legs could ( and probably have) pay the price.However, even if he gets back SOME of his shooting, that means he's contributing a little in one aspect of the entire game. Being a perimiter shooter doesn't preclude playing defense, or getting defensive rebounds, or making intelligent passes, but Rice brought none of these, and neither the offense nor his slump account for that. But I'll agree that, stuck as we are with him, I do hope that when he comes back he shoots the lights out. In his prime, he was amongst the best pure shooters I've ever seen...

Sherlock · Feb 7, 2002

<b>JAG</b>: Very well written post. Excellent use of farce and wonderfully tongue in cheek. I commend you!

I also noticed the falacy of the arguments of Pro-Rice defenders regarding choosing Anderson's contract vs. Rice's contract. We could have just let Shandon go. You have to wonder where we'd be right now if we hadn't signed Anderson/Rice or Norris, but held out low, then let them go... we'd have some cap room, especially after Walt's contract ended this summer, enough to outright sign Rashard Lewis, which I would love. I don't think they knew he would be available then ...

But I don't agree with you on everything else. There is something going on behind the scenes with the Rockets that is just TOO convenient and coincidental. I don't know if I call it tanking, but something doesn't add up... Rudy is too good a coach. I mean after we lost Mo, and Rice's injury became obviously more serious than the Rockets understood, they have found a way to somehow lose, while developing talent for the longterm.

Its almost like they knew Rice just needed time off to totally heal, so they tried to figure a way to make it work from a P/R standpoint. If Rice's injury problems were worse than we heard, this could also explain his being out of shape, slow, non-chalant, etc. The Rockets brass don't seem terribly upset about Rice's situation. They just use it as one more excuse of why the Rockets somehow keep losing.

I think we need this lottery pick to complete the rebuilding process. And we are playing Griffin, Thomas, Cato and Morris until they develop, even if its not the best way to win. Our substitutions make no sense at the end of some games. Its almost like the players have been instructed to go all out, but the coaches find a way to lose most of the time...

A healthy Rice would be very valuable to this team. And I could be totally wrong about this, just a hunch. If I'm right, next year could be pretty fun. If not, oh well... another bad move... we'll recover.

napster · Feb 7, 2002

Laker fan here...having gone through a year w/ Rice..I can honestly say he is shot.

He is not very consistent, plays what I like to call Matador D, and could not create his own shot if his life depended on it. He was marginally important to the Lakers 2 years ago, inconsistent and injured in New York, and is now useless in Houston. His game has long left him, and now all you get is a streaky at best, over-the-hill jumpshooter who probably couldn't even tie his shoes consistently.

JR · Feb 7, 2002

Hey Cat -- face it, Glen Rice blows and he has blown for the last few years just like the Laker fan said. Tell me something: if Rice is worth a **** how come he couldn't have hit water if he'd fallen out of a boat earlier this year? The guy can't even f'ing shoot anymore, which is the only thing he'd ever been good for anyway.

Also do you realize how ridiculous you and Rudy sound? The Rockets had coveted him? For crying out loud every team in the NBA had avoided him and his fat contract like the plague for the last few years and the Rockets do a SIGN AND TRADE for him?? What a joke.

leebigez · Feb 7, 2002

Rice was damaged goods and a player who Rudy so blindly wanted for yrs. We didn't have to pay Anderson a dime just like we didn't have to trade for a injured player. If nothing else it was guys like Cliff Robinson and Lamon Murray availible. Cliff Robinson would have been a good addition for this team at the 3 or 4 spot. He can defend, get his own shot and long. I was wondering why if we were going to try to get a veteran why not him. The owner was doing right by double checking Glen to see if he was damaged goods, i just wish he would have vetoed the trade , let Shandon walk and let one of the young guys try to play the 3 spot.

trifle3A · Feb 7, 2002

Im a newyorker and a rocket fan i see both teams because
i have directv and everyone in NY hates shandon anderson
and howard eisley everyone I know that are knicks fans think they got robbed rice has more skills now on the injured list than shandon ever will and they think that is why they cant make playoffs

if that makes anybody feel better about the trade

knicks fans hate shandon

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