Jordan, when on, could not be stopped - Steve isn't 20% the player Jordan was even on his worst teams. Next time you see 5 guys try to guard Steve like the Pistons used to do with Jordan, I'll call Steve a superstar. I also don't base superstardom necessarily on "does the guy take you to a championship?" There are all sorts of factors that go into it. For example, how unstoppable is the guy in the clutch? When the opposition thinks of "oh no, last second shot" you don't think of Steve Francis (although he's stepped that up a bit lately). Hell, I'd think of Cuttino Mobley on this team before I think of Steve in that situation. When you think of absolutely dominating games on a regular basis, you never thought of Steve Francis (until recently). How about making players around him better. Does Steve do this a la Jason Kidd or Magic Johnson? No. Your comment on Vinsanity is absolutely correct. If it were up to me and I were doing the judging, I would not call him a superstar. I think he's a hell of an offensive weapon. He's a superstar because he is marketable like no one else in the league right now short of Kobe Bryant. The NBA and the media have made him a superstar. As I typed his name I wanted to put : (but not according to me) in there. If Steve continues playing like he has in the past few games, he absolutely should be considered one, but like Lil Pun said, there is no one defined meaning of the word "superstar" in NBA sense. Its left up to the individual to decide.
I believe the definition of superstar is the issue here. What is a superstar? I once heard it defined as a player that people who don't really follow the sport that much recognise. For instance, I've only followed the NHL in passing, and in the last few years, not even that much, but I can recognise a few guys when I see them play, like Lemeaux, Lindros, and the like. Guys who capture the imagination and are marketable. Guys that your mother would see in a TV comercial, and she might recognise them. Given my definition, the short list of superstars in my mind would be Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Karla, Garnett, AI, Vince Carter, Hakeem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, perhaps McGrady, perhaps Stackhouse, and probably 1 or 2 others. I guess Steve could turn into a superstar, given more exposure, but I don't think at this point he is quite there yet.
when did dirk and pierce become superstars? i think they are both elite players, but they haven't accomplished anything in the playoffs either if thats the argument. has pierce even been to the playoffs? brand over steve, what is the argument for that? i think alot of people try too hard not to look like a homer, that it clouds their mind.
13-12 with a mediocre coach and an underachieving supporting cast is an excellent record, especially since Steve has been battling various physical problems all season. Stop comparing the guy to Jordan. No one in the NBA even comes close to Jordan in his prime. DaDakota, you are letting your hatred of Steve's style of play blind your judgement. If a player turns a 1-18 team into a 13-12 team, then that player is a superstar.
I agree. No one can have that kind affect on a team's record other than a superstar. The scarey thing about Steve is he hasn't even began to reach his full potetial, he still has a lot to learn.
Well then your standards for being a SUPERSTAR are far lower then mine. DOD has it right. There are only a handful of superstars, and Steve is not even close. DD
Just curious, when would he be "close but not quite there?" I don't think he's a superstar. But he's damned close. In fact, if he just improved his assist to turnover ratio, he probably would be one. Pg's that I can think of that are better than Francis: Jason Kidd. That's it.
Well some folks don't believe he's even an all star: http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/story/1535931p-1612409c.html
I beg to differ on the VC hating my favourite player is Francis, but i live in toronto and see alot of VC, and the media displays him as a guy that doesnt play D, he plays strong defense, but he is cocky and never wants help defending someone, he can block, hes quick, but lazy sometimes Id Take VC over francis
Steve isn't a superstar? Ridiculous. Without him, the Rockets are 1-18 for a winning percentage of .053. With him, they are 13-12 for a winning percentage of .52. If a team finished 5-77 one year and then after adding one player finished 43-39, would you not say that that player was a superstar? Are you people forgetting just how miserable and pathetic this team looked during Steve's absence? They were consistently getting blown out by the worst teams in the league! Steve doesn't make other players better? I don't recall anyone else throwing lobs to Kelvin Cato to get him into the game. How quickly are we forgetting how clowns like Matt Bullard and Walt Williams made killings off Steve Francis penetration last year. Are we forgetting how awkward Cuttino Mobley looked in his running mate's absence. Steve Francis still has some fundamental flaws in his game which will iron out with experience. However, it is laughable to begin to suggest that he is not a superstar. Any player who leads his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals is more than just a star. For Heaven's sake, he led a frontcourt of <i>Mo Taylor, Walt Williams, and Kelvin Cato</i> to a 45 win season! If that doesn't justify superstardom, <i>nothing</i> does.
i don't really even want to weigh in on the Steve as a superstar or not argument....I just wanted to say that the article that you pulled this from was written by Bob Simmons for Espn Page 2. That dude is hilarious! Very prolific as well. His articles are always LONG, but filled with all kinds of quirky insight, wit, and all-around humor. All in all, if you have yet to read any of his work, visit the ESPN site and click on the "page 2" link. He usually puts out a new article every 2 or 3 days, and he's a huge Boston sports fan. Needless to say, he's been eating up this patriots run....Very, very funny writer.....
My bad, let me try again: http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/story/1535932p-1612403c.html It implies he's not a worthy all star for this years team - a.) he missed most of the season and b.) his team, to put it gently, stinks at 14-30 or whatever we are now. entire article copy right sacramento bee *excerpted* below. NBA Beat: One All-Star has right stuff By Scott Howard-Cooper -- Bee Staff Writer Published 5:30 a.m. PST Sunday, Jan. 27, 2002 The people have spoken. Poorly, in some cases, but spoken nonetheless. Starters for the Feb. 10 All-Star Game in Philadelphia were announced Saturday, putting two Lakers, two Next Jordans and one Original in the opening lineup and clearing up one mystery: No one has been going to games in Houston because they've been too busy stuffing ballot boxes. The coaches go to the polls this week. Picks to decide the reserves are due Monday afternoon, with coaches voting for players in their own conference, no players on their own teams and, in a detail especially important in the West, at least one backup center in addition to two guards, two forwards and one at any position. The outcome is scheduled to be announced Tuesday. Someone else gets a voice today. Western Conference Guard -- Kobe Bryant of the Lakers and Steve Francis of the Rockets are the starters, Francis despite missing 19 of the first 43 games and even though Houston could finish last in the league in attendance. Bryant was an automatic. * The reserves: The selection of Francis should make the two choices easy. Gary Payton of the SuperSonics and Steve Nash of the Mavericks are on, making any debate over Wally Szczerbiak of the Timberwolves, Stephon Marbury of the Suns and Nick Van Exel of the Nuggets moot since Francis took what should have been a fourth spot in question. Coaches can go with five guards, but that's unlikely since there is much more depth at forward. Forward -- Kevin Garnett of the Timberwolves and Tim Duncan of the Spurs are the starters. Easy calls. * The reserves: Six players are going for four spots. A case can be made for Peja Stojakovic and Chris Webber of the Kings, Dirk Nowitzki of the Mavericks, Karl Malone of the Jazz, Elton Brand of the Clippers and Shawn Marion of the Suns -- and also for Rasheed Wallace of the Trail Blazers, except that he is a case. Stojakovic was the best player through the first half of the season for the team with the best record. His choice should be without debate. Nowitzki is likewise a no-brainer. But Webber doesn't make it. He has sent everyone into hiding who once claimed the Kings would be better without him, or at least that his return from a sprained ankle would break their rhythm, and his run the last three weeks has re-asserted Webber as an elite power forward. But there is no getting around that he has missed more games than he has played. That leaves Malone and Brand for the other two spots, going with six forwards as Western coaches did last year in Washington. Malone would love to take a pass and get the rest and may try to play the Olympics card to get out of the trip, since he will have some role in ceremonies before the Games in Salt Lake City. But the league has been unforgiving of scheduling conflicts and minor injuries in the past. If the special circumstances get him out, Webber is back in the mix, although it's a little difficult to imagine after the past three days how there can be any exhibition game involving a King if Jazz representation isn't in the building. Center -- Shaquille O'Neal of the Lakers is the starter. * The reserve: Vlade Divac of the Kings goes from never making the All-Star Game in his first 11 seasons to making it two years in a row. No one should challenge him in the voting. Eastern Conference Guard -- The Wizards' Michael Jordan (or is that "Michael Jordan's Wizards"?) and Allen Iverson of the host 76ers are the starters. * The reserves: Jason Kidd of the Nets is an automatic. That leaves three spots for worthy candidates Baron Davis of the Hornets, Ray Allen of the Bucks, Jerry Stackhouse of the Pistons and Andre Miller of the Cavaliers, and that's with taking advantage of the latitude to put Tracy McGrady of the Magic at forward. The easy choices are for Davis and Allen. The tougher one is for Stackhouse. His team may have faded, but his contributions to a great start by learning to be unselfish while still proving to be a 20-point scorer should not be overlooked. Forward -- Vince Carter of the Raptors and Antoine Walker of the Celtics are the starters, Walker despite shooting 38.8 percent from the field when the announcement was made. * The reserves: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, underappreciated when he played for the Grizzlies, doesn't get a break even after changing conferences. He is on pace to make a run at a 20-10 (points-rebounds) season for the Hawks but runs out of room here. He can blame Walker. If the decision is to go with six guards and four forwards like last year -- and it should be -- McGrady and Paul Pierce of the Celtics are more deserving. Center -- Dikembe Mutombo of the 76ers is the starter. * The reserve: Jermaine O'Neal of the Pacers is the choice, and not just to remind everyone that he's the rising star the Trail Blazers could still have had. Ben Wallace of the Pistons, listed at center despite the move to power forward before the season, should be considered, and Elden Campbell of the Hornets will get some attention. Pau, as in wow The play of Pau Gasol in Memphis has been so overwhelming that the Grizzlies aren't bothering with the typical we-knew-it-all-along talk. Gasol clearly is proving to be the best rookie in the league at the midpoint of the season when he wasn't even supposed to be the best rookie on the team. The only real doubt was whether they are all able to appreciate the developments with their heads spinning. Gasol was the No. 3 pick but the pick for the future. The forward from Spain could shoot from the outside and play some from the post but needed to bulk up a lot and find his way not only in the new league but in a new country. Instead, as Jamaal Tinsley has hit the wall in Indiana, or just played to his potential as an inconsistent point guard, Gasol has emerged as the top candidate for Rookie of the Year. He can shoot from the outside and play a lot from the post and score inside without putting muscle on an exclamation point that passes as a power forward's body. That so-called transition turned out to be just as deceptive. Gasol, with a veteran's ability to shoot inside with both hands and a good court sense, has adjusted to the NBA every bit as smoothly as Shane Battier, the No. 6 pick who has been as solid and mature as advertised and has contributed exactly as the Grizzlies expected. They could make Memphis the first team since Cleveland in 1997-98, with Brevin Knight and Zydrunas Ilgauskas, to have two players named to the All-Rookie first team, but that's nothing compared to the accomplishment of Gasol emerging at warp speed. "He's playing right now like you'd hope he would be playing at the end of the year," coach Sidney Lowe said, doing nothing to hide his surprise at the development. Said Gasol, when asked whether he would have expected this production this soon: "No. Never. Ever. Never ever. I'm surprised at what I'm doing." His English is good, so there are no language problems, and his potential is even better. The front line, starring the two forwards, likely gets another boost soon with the expected return of center Lorenzen Wright, possibly this week, a month ahead of the original timetable. Wright has been on the injured list since Dec. 6 because of a stress fracture below the left knee. He was averaging 14.1 points and 11.3 rebounds when he went out. Et cetera NBA officials didn't offer much in the way of explanation about why Shaquille O'Neal got a three-game suspension for flailing at Chicago's Brad Miller, as opposed to the stronger penalty that many expected. But they now privately concede the temperance came in part from sympathy after years of watching O'Neal get more hard fouls than anyone in the league without responding with more than trash talk. He doesn't have a history of fighting back, despite countless promises that the next excessive hack would be answered with a karate chop, with the greatest previous game rumble coming only after Charles Barkley threw a ball at him. * Dallas' Don Nelson conceded that his coaching was suffering as his mind drifted following news that his wife has breast cancer, blaming a near-loss to the Jazz last Saturday on his own concentration lapses. His close friend/assistant, Del Harris, said Nellie admitted in the week before the surgery to watching film "and not seeing anything." Nelson, who continues to report progress after missing 21 games last season because of prostate surgery, eventually left the team to be with his wife and returned Thursday. Initial reports are that Joy Nelson, a lady worth rooting for in any situation, is doing well and that the cancer has not spread. * With No. 1 pick Kwame Brown emotionally missing in action -- so rattled after going from a supposed foundation of the Wizards' future to being out of the rotation that his once-smooth face has broken out -- coach Doug Collins is regretting his early heavy-handed approach. "I expected too much of him, and in doing so I demanded things of him he wasn't ready to do," Collins said. "I wish I'd made him feel more comfortable and relaxed. He was so excited and enthusiastic. Now he seems to have retreated and lost that zest. I want him to get that back." * Speculation continues about whether Scott Skiles is considering quitting as the Suns coach, mostly because Skiles dodges the issue and refuses to say he wants to stay. Chairman Jerry Colangelo acknowledged he met recently to rally Skiles but would not be more specific. "Was he down? Yes," Colangelo said. "Did he need encouragement? Sure." Said Skiles: "I don't want to comment. There's way too much talking going on. That's my opinion." * Charles Oakley, after the Bulls shot 24.7 percent last Saturday against the Wizards and were at 19 percent with about 90 seconds remaining before a series of meaningless three-pointers: "What do we have to be embarrassed about? We're an 8-31 team." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About the Writer --------------------------- The Bee's Scott Howard-Cooper can be reached at (916) 321-1210 or showard-cooper@sacbee.com . Information obtained from writers in other cities was used in this report. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20-Second Timeout Who's hot Reggie Miller: Veteran guard continues to step away from the spotlight to make room for younger Pacers but is on pace for his best shooting percentage since 1993-94 and the best three-point mark of his career. He also could finish better than 90 percent from the line for fourth season in a row. Kenny Thomas: Scuffle with Shareef Abdur-Rahim gets the headlines, but average of 13.8 points is a major jump from the 7.1 of last season. His 47.8 percent from the field is second-best on the Rockets as forward capitalizes on injury to Maurice Taylor to emerge in third season. Dirk Nowitzki: His hair, in this case. Mavericks coach Don Nelson grabs golden locks after star forward gets buzz cut, bags them and puts them on the selling block to raise money for breast cancer research. "It's gross," says Nowitzki, who nonetheless does his part by signing 45 of the bags. "I wouldn't spend any money on this." Plenty of other people would -- early supplies go for $100. Scot Pollard immediately laments years worth of lost potential income. Antawn Jamison: Goes from averaging 16.8 points in first 27 games to 24.2 in next 14, while also grabbing 7.6 rebounds and shooting 49.8 percent for Golden State. John Stockton: Jazz guard averages 17.7 points and 6.7 assists and shoots 53.2 percent in six-game stretch against Phoenix (Stephon Marbury), Houston (Steve Francis), Memphis (Jason Williams), Denver (Nick Van Exel), Seattle (Gary Payton), San Antonio (Antonio Daniels) and Dallas (Steve Nash). Who's not Cavaliers' big men: Rookie center DeSagana Diop, No. 8 pick overall after jumping from high school, has as many personal fouls (14) as points in first eight games after finally getting healthy. Power forward-center Chris Mihm has run of six games and 140 minutes in all without an assist and goes 28 of first 41 games without making a pass that leads to a basket. Pacers: It's not just the series of injuries, most notably the season-ender to developing Al Harrington, and skid of seven losses in nine games. Indiana even drops four of five at home, turning the best building in the league ugly. Chris Childs: Problems with Achilles' tendon and sore foot and 34.3 percent from the field come just in time for contract year for Raptors guard, who is 34 and will soon start hearing talk that age is taking a toll. "I'm tired of sitting," he says. "This is no time to sit." NBA Q & A: Answers to your probing questions about the NBA Question: Nick Anderson barely played when the Grizzlies were at Arco Arena the other night. Is he unhappy in Memphis? Answer: Anderson said he enjoys his teammates, coaches and management, even with the limited role, but still might ask to be traded rather than go through a long building process in Memphis. Unlike during training camp, he is not considering retiring. The former King is under contract until the end of next season and wants another shot at winning a championship, but no team is going to offer much. Anderson, 34, might have to consider negotiating a buyout with the Grizzlies to become a free agent. Send questions to showard-cooper@sacbee.com.
Steve does make his teammates better. He can still improve in that category and doesn't do it the same way Jason Kidd or Magic did. But Steve does command defenders to double team him, and gets others on the team much better shots as a result. Also remember STeve is still young, and not only learning the NBA, he's learning a new position(PG) The other superstar PG's played that position all along. Already Steve has willed the Rockets to victory, in his first start after the prolongued injuries, in the overtime win against Charlotte etc. He's beginning to arrive.
I nominate that last post by theCabbage for post of the year. That should end the argument. Absolutely spot-on brilliant!
Didn't Hakeem play on that team too? Francis is a star no doubt, but he is not yet a superstar, will he get there....hopefully, but guys like Jordan, Hakeem, Isaiah, Bird, Duncan, Magic all came into the league as a Superstar, and played like it. Francis is a GREAT player, but to be a Superstar takes consistency, and leadership. 2 qualities that Francis is still working on. He is a great individual talent, but he IS NOT a great team player...yet. DaDakota
I don't recall Cato doing much of anything when Steve was in there until recently. Cato is better because they've designed a play for Cato now that they've gotten enough reps with. Steve throws a pretty lob, but give Cato some credit for this. Cato has stepped up his rebounding and presence in general. Or should we say Steve has helped his rebounding, too? Steve is a very very good player. But let me slam your argument with your own words : Steve led the team in points : with our lineup, outside of Mobley who the heck else is gonna lead the team?! Cato? KT? Steve led the team in rebounding : why don't you repeat your line about who our front line is again. It's not like he had any competition. That being said, I admit this is a big feat. Steve led the team in steals : several guards are capable of that. Steve led the team in assists : well, I should hope so, he's about the only PG we have. This is why I said it takes more than just stats to be a superstar. By the way, would you consider Lafayette Lever a superstar? Like I said, Steve is very close based upon his recent play, but I don't think he's in the category of a Shaq, Kobe, or Iverson where teams cower in fear. He'll be there in a couple of weeks at the rate he's going.
