Ecuador / Venezuela Mobilizing Batallions Against Colombia

I only bet when I am sure I am going to win 100% (ie I am not a betting man)

Thanks for citing a source, even though that source is biased.

 

"gas cylinder bombs are impossible to aim with accuracy and, as a result, frequently strike civilian objects and cause avoidable civilian casualties."

Crossfires happen in war =(
It was not an intentional search and destroy mission like those sent by the government.
I think all civilians, rich and poor, are tired of the war and just want peace. But both sides deserve blame for dragging it out for this long.
You can't give one the title of a terrorist and give the government a pardon,
that on to itself would be a human rights violation.

 

I have at no point defended the Colombian government's record. This particular line of discussion started because you were upset people were saying bad things about the FARC.

Just as you can't assume "Government good, rebels bad" you can't decry every government as evil fascists, and paint insurgent groups as fine, upstanding friendly citizens. It isn't true. They aren't nice people. They aren't MLK or Gandhi. The kidnappings, the "protection money" extortion, and drug running would be a good place to start in proving that point. Indiscriminate use of explosive devices in civilian areas is another. The FARC and the current Colombian government are both just two dogs fighting over who gets to lead the pack.

 

The territorial borders for State sovereignty have been blurred in the fight against terror (i.e. we bombed Somalia today).….we are going to see a lot more conflicts due to this…

 

But it is still governed by realpolitik. That's why Ecuador was violated first by not Venezuela.

 

Possible. The Ecuador incursion was meant to test the water. We might later tell Colombia to do the same on Venezuela. When the war breaks out, then we can have air support for the Colombians. Then they will prevail and we can then install a friend to replace to Chavez.

 

Sure is. I hope Chavez doesn't give Bush an excuse. This is right in our backyard. We have the assets to intervene, for sure.



Impeach Bush.

 

Whatever you want to say about the relationship between Colombia and the USA, no country is going to throw itself under a train for another country. Relationships don't work that way, any more than Ecuador would allow itself to be invaded by Colombia so that Venezuela could attack them.

Colombia would get decimated in such a scenario for a couple weeks until the US was able to properly mobilize. If you think the USA could get Colombia to commit seppuku for the benefit America, I don't think you understand the relationship. We aren't controlling their leader with secret CIA mind control hypnosis techniques. Urebe chooses to ally with the USA because he sees it as beneficial. Voluntary self-destruction is not a beneficial outcome.

And don't you think that Venezuela has enough sense to know that if they actually attacked Colombia that within a couple of weeks they would run a good chance of being at war with the USA? I mean, if everybody in this thread can see it, can't Chavez? I don't know of anybody that’s accused him of being a stupid man. If you were him, would you risk that? Venezuela is no more likely to commit suicide than Colombia is. Self preservation is a strong motive.

You have a very cynical and jaundiced viewpoint which I can respect and to some degree I sympathize with. But with all due respect, I don't think you are trying very hard to understand what motivates the players in this conflict.

 

I think Venezuela does need a Colombia incursion to itself to really hit back at Colombia. Short of that, it remains a matter between Ecuador and Colombia.

But sometimes nations do irrational/extraordinary things. That's why the Wall Street was burned when Russia defaulted in the 90s.

 

Looks like some of my predictions was correct

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i3-gy-m2ViT4af14BjcC-rOHaWrgD8V652980

Venezuela, Ecuador Threaten Colombia

By IAN JAMES – 1 hour ago

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuela and Ecuador ordered troops to their borders with Colombia, denouncing the killing of a rebel leader on Ecuadorean soil. Colombia responded on Monday with charges that documents found at a bombed rebel camp link President Hugo Chavez to the guerrillas.

Colombia's police chief, Gen. Oscar Naranjo, said documents recovered from a slain rebel leader's computer indicate Chavez recently sent $300 million to Colombian guerrillas. He said another document indicates the rebels sent money to Chavez when he was a jailed coup leader more than a decade ago.

Naranjo said the files were recovered from a laptop owned by the rebel known as Raul Reyes, who was killed Saturday in a Colombian commando raid on a camp just across the border in Ecuador.

"A note recovered from Raul Reyes speaks of how grateful Chavez was for the 100 million pesos (about $150,000 at the time) that the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, delivered to Chavez when he was in prison," Naranjo told a news conference in Bogota.

Venezuelan Vice President Ramon Carrizalez dismissed the charges, saying: "We are accustomed to the lies of the Colombian government."

"Whatever they say has no importance. They can invent anything now to try to get out of that violation of Ecuadorean territory that they committed."

The slaying of Reyes and 16 other rebels in Ecuador on Saturday has sharply raised tensions between the three Andean neighbors.


Chavez on Sunday promised Venezuela would respond militarily if Colombia violates its border, where he ordered tanks as well as thousands of troops. He also ordered closed Venezuela's embassy in Bogota.

Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa said he deployed troops while also withdrawing his ambassador from Bogota and expelling Colombia's top diplomat.


"There is no justification," Correa said Sunday night, snubbing an earlier announcement from Colombia that it would apologize for the military incursion. Ecuadorean troops headed for the border Monday in helicopters.

Chavez called the killing of Reyes and the other rebels an attack by a "terrorist state," saying Colombian President Alvaro Uribe is a "criminal."

"Mr. Defense Minister, move 10 battalions to the border with Colombia for me, immediately — tank battalions. Deploy the air force," Chavez said during his Sunday radio and television program.

Correa said Colombia deliberately carried out the strike beyond its borders, flying deep into Ecuador to bomb the rebel camp. He said the rebels were "bombed and massacred as they slept, using precision technology."

The Colombian military said the camp was located just over a mile from the border.

Colombian officials have long complained rebels are allowed to take refuge across its borders in both Ecuador and Venezuela.

Colombian Defense Minister Juan Manuel Santos said Monday that his government isn't moving any troops and "we have the situation under control."

"We prefer to leave President Chavez out of this discussion," Santos told Caracol radio. "We don't mention that person, we don't make any comments on what he says, does or suggests."

A U.S. State Department spokesman, Tom Casey, said the United States supports Colombia's right to defend itself against the FARC and called for dialogue between Colombia and Ecuador.

"From our perspective this is an issue between Colombia and Ecuador," he said. "I'm not sure what this has to do with Venezuela."

In Chile, President Michelle Bachelet offered to mediate in the conflict.

"A situation like this requires an explanation from Colombia to Ecuadoreans, to the Ecuadorean president and to the entire region," Bachelet said. "We are very worried."

Mexico to Brazil also offered diplomatic help.

Ecuadorean troops recovered the seminude bodies of 15 rebels in their jungle camp.

Soldiers covered their faces with bandannas to ward off the stench Sunday at the camp, where bodies were splayed on the ground in their underwear. Scattered among the corpses were pieces of clothing, shoes, guns, grenades and a refrigerator.

Soldiers also found three wounded women at the camp — a Mexican philosophy student injured by shrapnel and two Colombians — who were evacuated by helicopter to be treated.

Colombian commandos removed the cadavers of Reyes and one other rebel.

Indignant, Chavez said "they wanted to show off the trophy" and called it "cowardly murder, all of it coldly calculated."

"This could be the start of a war in South America," Chavez said. He warned Uribe: "If it occurs to you to do this in Venezuela, President Uribe, I'll send some Sukhois" — Russian warplanes recently bought by Venezuela.

"This is saber-rattling, trying to make a point," said Adam Isacson, an analyst for the Washington-based Center for International Policy. By holding a moment of silence in honor of the slain rebels during his program, Chavez "has all but said that the FARC will be safe in Venezuela, and that the Venezuelan armed forces would respond to a similar Colombian incursion into Venezuelan territory."

However, Isacson said, the countries share robust trade, the militaries "are not enthusiastic" and the populations of the neighbors "are hardly consumed by war fever."

The situation pushed tense relations between Venezuela and Colombia to a new nadir, though cross-border trade has not yet been seriously affected.

Naranjo also said documents from a computer seized where Reyes was killed suggested Ecuador's president is deepening relations with the FARC.

There were no concrete reports on troop movements in Venezuela's state media Monday morning. Chavez did not specify how many troops he was dispatching. A Venezuelan battalion traditionally has roughly 600 soldiers.

Chavez has increasingly revealed his sympathies for the leftist FARC, and in January asked that it be struck from international terror lists. The group funds itself largely through the cocaine trade and kidnaps for ransom and political ends.

Colombia said military commandos, tracking Reyes through an informant, first bombed a camp on the Colombian side of the border. It said the troops came under fire from across the border in Ecuador and encountered Reyes' body when they overran that camp.

"It was a massacre," said Correa, who accused Colombia of lying and said some rebels were shot in the back.

Former Cuban leader Fidel Castro, writing in the Communist Party daily Granma, blamed the U.S. for created the tensions: "We can plainly hear the trumpets of war to the south ... as a consequence of genocidal plans of the Yankee empire."

Colombia and Venezuela have been locked in a diplomatic crisis since Uribe sought in November to halt Chavez's efforts to mediate a prisoner swap. The FARC has since freed six hostages to delegates of Chavez, including four released last week.

The FARC has demanded creation of a safe zone in Colombia to negotiate a swap of some 40 high-value captives, including former presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt and three U.S. defense contractors, for hundreds of imprisoned guerrillas.

Associated Press writers Frank Bajak, Toby Muse, and Vivian Sequera in Bogota; Gabriela Molina and Jeanneth Valdivieso in Quito, Ecuador; Diego Norona in Angostura, Ecuador; and Sandra Sierra in Caracas contributed to this report.

 

Before you ask a silly question like this one please read a little bit about what the FARC have done in Colombia for the last 40 years. Bombing, kidnapping, antipersonal mines (those are placed on rural grounds, not exactly where rich people work), child recruiting, the list goes on and on. If you think it's just the upper class against FARC please do a google search for the protest on February 4th/2008. If that many people is rich in Colombia then we must be the richest country in the world.

I'm Colombian and have suffered all my life from the crimes this terrorist organization has commited against the whole population. Right wing paramilitaries were as bad as FARC, but at least president Uribe has put an end to them. It's time to put an end to this war, I just hope Chavez doesn't get in the way.

 

Therein lies the key to this whole situation. If Chavez is dumb enough to drag Venezuela into a conflict with Colombia, then he will be drawing the U.S. into the conflict, which can't be good for him or his country. I think Chavez knows that fully well, even more so since Bush/Chaney and the rest of the crew are probably itching for a fight. Now I understand that some people believe oil will play a role here in keeping the U.S. out of any potential regional conflict, but I don't think that will be enough of a deterrence for this administration in its last go-around.

So my advice to Chavez is this: use your brain, not your penis...

 

I doubt anything is going to happen. Everytime Chavez opens his pie hole the price of oil goes up a couple dollars, which is exactly what he wants. Nobody in that region has anything to gain by going to war.

 

I've have recently expressed some reservations about Chavez, who as you know I supported pretty enthusiastically. I was glad he lost his referendum. Also glad he seems to have accepted the results.

Chavez does not seem to be acting wisely on this matter, though I doubt we have the full story.

Hopefully you will one day express some reservations about being lied to by Bush-Cheny and develop some reservations about the Iraq War as the fact keep developing.

I would not be surprised to see the US encourage a war between Columbia and Venezuela in order to try to violently overthrow Chavez. McCain I suspect would be up for it. I suspect you would too.

Is this the case? I don't know, but things like this have happened frequently in US Latin America relations and the particular group in control of the GOP are not known as peacemakers. See the recent thread by Major on Gaza as an example of the recent policies of this administration.

We will just have to wait and see.

 

I agree. No way Venezuela invades Columbia. The Bush Admin would love it. Hopefully Columbia is not pushing for an incident at the urging of the Bush Administattion-- just waiting for an opening.

 

I largely agree with this post at present. I don't know the origins of this civil war. Perhaps the guerillas may have started out 40 years ago with legitimate grievances and were forced to fight.

In El Salvador for instance the opposition was forced into civil war once the elections were continually stolen, peaceful demonstrations were fired upon over and over and the government started killing not only the opposition, but any of their family members. This was often done through death squads. Sadly at the encouragement of the US.

 

Sure would be awesome to see a full blown out crazy war not involving the USA.

CNN coverage would be awesome.

 

The FARC's origins were legitimate. It all started during a period of political disequilibrium where right and left wing governement's took turns for 20 years, leaving huge social problems due to their different political views. People from lower classes got fed up and united to fight for their rights, social balance,etc. The problem came afterwards, in the 80's, when they noticed they were better off trafficking drugs. Since then, it has all gone downhill. Bombing started, kidnapping, which led to the worldwide image Colombia suffers from nowadays. I should remind you this civil war has tormented us for such a long time and previous governments have tried to take the dialogue road but it has always been a failure. Finally someone had the guts to stop this and that's President Uribe. It's awful that when he finally delivers a huge blow to the FARC (Death of second in command), the international scene condemns our government for crossing 1.8km into ecuadorian soil.On a final note Ottomaton, in a democracy, two dogs shouldn't be fighting to lead the pack, it's the people who chose and here we have chosen, and by a wide margin, to go with Uribe and not support the world of terror the FARC brought us to.

I can't believe what I just read, awesome and war in the same sentence. Then you wonder why most of the world hates U.S. citizens. I know there are lots of good people over there, but it really hurts me to hear someone say they would enjoy the coverage CNN would give while I sit here worried about war,my family and my country.