outlaw did it before me, but I thought the same thing about Disney and the Baptist Convention. Right wing religous groups pressured chain retailers into not carrying certain kinds of music. Groups have pressured the music industry into labelling its products. How about GodHatesFags.com? That's NOT propoganda? To suggest that the left is any more pervasive about their desire to alter the landscape of American ideology through censorship any more than the right is either closing your eyes to the issue or not paying attention. Both ends of the spectrum try to shut the other down when they don't like what the other says.
<b>tl</b>: "RR - is your goal in this discussion just to be argumentative? It surely seems so. Were you really refuting the meaning and application of the word homophobe. If outlaw had used the phrase "intolerant a$$hole", would that have been better? i may have misread outlaw, but i don't think causation has anything to do with anything. when keyes refers to homosexuality and predatory behavior in the same light, i've got to believe that's pretty damn offensive. a show doesn't have to reinforce the viewer's every thought and desire, but when the star/host of the show makes a point to say he detests one's way of life, i bet that makes it harder to enjoy. I guarantee you if david duke had a show i wouldn't ever flip my remote to his show or that network." <b>RR</b>: I guess it is offensive to be called a sexual aberrant, but that is Keyes' right. That does not make him a homophobe--a term commonly used to attempt shame those who don't accept pro-homosexual positions. You can't win an argument by making citations that don't even address the point being raised. Can you? When people attack my position, I'm going to defend it. If you must call that argumentative, go ahead. "dylan" called me a joke and I refuted his criticism. Remember, he is the one who called me a joke. Now, exactly who is being argumentative here? Notice that it is me and Keyes that are being called names. What do we have in common?! BTW, the host never said such a thing on the show. outlaw got that quote from somewhere else-- assuming it is an accurate citation. The show debuted Monday night and they talked about military tribunals.
It's not. It is, in fact, exactly the same tactic. I'm glad you brought it up, actually... The far right is just as bad as the far left, IMHO. Both will try to suppress first Amendment rights whenever possible. I'm just mystified as to how the far left can deny that it engages in those tactics as well. I just am not happy when either side tries to suppress freedom of expression by the opposing side. Yes, they can campaign against it and try to win hearts and minds. But when they use threatening tactics (like the SBs against Disney or GLAAD's anti-Laura campaign), that goes beyond freedom of expression. That is coercion. (for the record, I support gay rights and oppose the conservative Christians in their efforts against them) One that comes to mind is the Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays - a support group for family members and homosexuals. NOW, as well, although with the takeover of that organization by radical feminists she has been excluded. But she has never towed party lines, and is reviled because of it. Obviously, GLAAD and Queer Nation are not going to accept her help... Again, I do not agree with her views. I just have a problem with the way that the opposition has tried to silence her. I don't care if it's right wing v. left wing, or vice versa - I think the 1st amendment applies to everyone. As distasteful as I find the leftist propaganda that's coming out of our universities today, they have a right to speak. As distasteful as I find the extremist propaganda coming from David Duke, he has a right to speak. We have the right to ignore them and blow them off. Do we also have the right to lie about them, slander/libel them, and threaten economic sanctions against anyone who allows them to speak? Let nature take its course. If the market truly will not yield the demand, then they will lose their podiums. Don't usurp their right to speak and steal the soapbox from them. Let them speak, and let everyone reject their ideas on their own cognizance. The market will correct itself.
Other than "homophobe," the word that seems to be thrown around the most in this thread is "articulate." Why is it that white politicians/public figures are never called "articulate" with such frequency and zeal? Why is that generally one of the first positive comments made about black public figures? "Colin Powell is great...he is so articulate!" Keyes is funny. During the Republican primaries my wife and I got a good laugh because he was so mean and bitter. We enjoyed that he almost fit the stereotypical "angry black man" mold, but still didn't because his ideals were conservative. Anyway...uh, you had to be there. So my point was...you all are a bunch of racist, homophobic bastards.
rimbaud: I am not gonna jump on the bandwagon to defend Keyes' ideological points (since I agree with almost none of them), but you've got to admit that he is 'articulate'. He's an excellent speaker, has absolutely no problem arguing his POV, is fairly rational about all of it, uses logical arguments, etc... Again, not that I agree with him about anything (I really only agree with him on war issues - everything else I almost find offensive), but you've got to admit he's good at what he does - which is piss people off. And he speaks very clearly. More than I can say for Jesse...
treeman, I guess I don't understand your opinion. All the opponents of Dr. Laura are doing is using their 1st amendment rights as well. Their opinion is that a hate spewing television/radio host shouldn't be on the air. They're using the weapon of money to fight their battle. I don't see what's wrong with that. It's when the goverment takes a stand either way that I have a problem.
Rm95: So you think that distributing fliers with directions to Dr. Laura's home that encourage violence is a legitemate tactic? I seriously doubt that you have actually ever listened to a Dr. Laura broadcast. I really do doubt it. My guess is that you're only aware of her because of the controversy... As I've said a number of times, I do not agree with her views. But I have actually listened to her (and subsequently researched the issue a bit), and I've found that GLAAD's portrayal of her as a hate-mongering bigot is totally false. GLAAD does not actually want you to listen to her program and decide for yourself; they'd prefer that you boycot her program and take their word for it. I hinted earlier that her words have been distorted. That is verifiable. I think that at least one group is interested in your facile acceptance of their interpretation (which is totally inaccurate) of her opinions. Again, I am not defending her opinions - I am only saying that they have been misrepresented by factions who want you to think in a certain way. You have fallen hook, line, and sinker for the shrimpy bait you have been given. Learn to think on your own, and this won't happen. You'll be better off in the long run. You'll at least recognize the difference between a propaganda campaign and an actual civil rights movement.
I've never heard of anything like that. Click here, http://bbs.clutchcity.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16738&highlight=laura . I've listened to her plenty, and I've made my own educated opinions about her stupidity thank you very much.
I don't know this Alan Keyes guy from Adam, but I did read this http://www.msnbc.com/news/691566.asp?cp1=1 Yikes! I understand that this is a time of war, and that there is a need for a country to pull together in such times. But I also understand that it's at these times that the negative aspects of nationalism can raise their ugly head. People will also try to use this situation to promote their personal agendas. "Finally, a nation morally ready to defend itself will be safe as well from the never-sleeping ambitions of government to expand its control and diminish the responsibility of its people." This guy is using the war as an excuse to promote his own political objectives. That's more than a bit obscene if you ask me.
I've never heard of a positive connection between Laura Schlessinger and P-FLAG. I tried to find one online but was unsuccessful. If you could provide a link I would appreciate it (sincerely). Anyway, the P-FLAG chapter of Cleveland sells these bumper stickers online
Hey Jeff, have you ever listened to one? I doubt that too, if your propensity to boycott the Keyes program is any indicator. You guys are proving me right. You will absolutely refuse to even watch/listen to any program that you know might contradict your views. I find that amusing. And disturbing... (Re: hate fliers) Then why don't you do a little more research? Don't just assume that when you hear a position propagated by an organization that you happen to agree with - don't just assume that they're correct and stop asking questions. That is the exact problem I have with religious right organizations. Funny to see it come from the left... Good book on the subject: The New Thought Police: Inside the Left's Assault on Free Speech and Free Minds, by Tammy Bruce. She's a definite liberal (a self-described lesbian former NOW-LA President who carries a gun now) who has issues with the left's attempts to stifle free speech above anything else... My guess is that noone (Jeff and Rm95) will even bother to read this book. Who likes to read about opinions they don't agree with? I will put down $10 that Jeff doesn't read it. $50 that Rm95 doesn't... This book is basically where I'm coming from. Have you ever read a book and said to yourself "Yeah, exactly, don't I know it" continuously? Liberal, but disgusted with the lengths that so-called liberals will go to to cover up facts and distort truths - and to violate our 1st Amendment rights. It will clear up this thread.
Hey, Everyone - look at what's happening to me now: I am being bombasted because I'm saying that Dr. Laura has a right to free speech. I have repeatedly said that I don't agree with her views, only that I believe that she has a right to speak her mind (and if the market demands it, to make her money doing it). And look what happens: the "Left" comes out swinging. God forbid that we let anyone with controversial ideas actually speak their mind. And no, anyone who wants to let them speak their mind must be silenced too... The First Amendment works just fine. Especially if you agree with Jeff and Rm95. (if you don't, then we will bombast you for proposing that free speech applies to everyone, though) I know I am right now. We are in trouble.
I'm not sure what your point is. I, personally, don't like the left or the right trying to impose their will on people, but it is the nature of a free market economy. If you can't get advertisers, you can't stay on the air. I didn't make the rules. If you want us to be something other than a capitalist society, by all means, give it a shot. When you disagree with an opinion, I don't think your strongest way to support your own is to censor the other. I have never tried to do that myself and I find it to not only be pretty stupid but utterly ineffective. You are right. I am probably not going to read that book mainly because I'd probably be asleep after the 2nd chapter. That type of stuff really just bores the hell out of me whether it be from the right or left. And, YES, I have listened to Dr. Laura numerous times and YES I have heard a number of speeches from Allen Keyes and seen him on numerous talk shows. I disagree with most of what they say. Big deal. Just my opinion, nothing more. But, I'm not sure, again, what your point is and I find it terribly strange that a guy who spends 99% of his time on this BBS posting war or anti-Iraq/Palestine/Arab (whatever you want to call it) is criticizing someone else for his narrow world view. Ever the Koran? Interested in reading some books on Buddhism or how evil Israel is? Since you are taking shots at the left, ever listen to NPR, hang out at a Sierra Club meeting, check out Democracy Now on Pacifica? I'm guessing not or is that a reach? For the record, I've been on both sides. I was once a pro-death penalty, anti-abortion, pro war, Regan loving right wing born again Christian conservative who owned several guns, hunted and fished. Now, I'm not. Things change.
Still, I don't understand you treeman (or, as I like to call you, the new RichRocket). The first amendment is fine with you until someone protests what someone says. Get this through your military head...they aren't protesting her/his right to say it, they are protesting what she said. Would you sit idly by while someone said that all soldiers were assholes who deserved to die? I doubt it, you infringer of 1st amendment rights, you. Would you sit idly by while someone said that the United States should burn in hell? I doubt it, you infringer of 1st amendment rights, you. I don't have to listen to Alan Keyes or Dr. Laura any more than I already have. I consider myself a little dumber for having spent as much time as I have listening to Dr. Laura. I've heard much more than you seem to want to give me credit for (which I don't understand...do you really think that liberals like Jeff and myself just form opinions like this based on other people, I resent that-I've become a liberal despite two conservative parents and growing up in a conservative town/state). Send me the book, I'll write you a book report, and you can send me $50 you pompous ass.
So... You're not going to bother even reading the book? It's a bestseller, Jeff... But fine. That's what I expected. Although I didn't actually expect you to tell me ahead of time that you refused to read it. Needless to say, you've reinforced my idea that the far-left refuses to even acknowledge other forms of thought... You disappoint me, Jeff. My vision of an altruistic, truth-seeking warrior is replaced by a vision of a sucker-up who... won't even bother to finish.
Rm95: Let me illustrate it this way: I am a liberal who is being forced into a corner. I am being painted along with RR as a "right wing nut". I am actually so much closer to you ideologically than I am to RR, but because of your tendency to attempt to silence/slander anyone who doesn't agree with you, I am forced to side with religious conservatives. No offense to you, RR. Really, no offense intended, but I am not in your camp. Read the book I mentioned. Otherwise, don't bother.
