<b>Hayes</b>: "Why should the majority get to ban the minority? That's not the way our democracy is supposed to work. No one should CONTROL the market. It will function perfectly without your interference. You can go to a non smoking restaurant, and I can go to a smoking one. I've already said some specifc public areas, such as libraries and schools, could be restricted, as there is less choice involved for non smokers. And you'd be suprised what the 'majority' has found 'obnoxious' in the past, and its not a position I would advocate." <b>RR</b>: Is it necessary to exagerate to cling to your point? No one is "banning" the minority. We are banning a behavior which has an irritating and maybe harmful effect on surrounding non-participants. Are you saying that The Smoking Privilege does not control the market? Right now, they can go to a majority of places and pollute the air for everyone. It is not functioning perfectly because smokers are devaluing the basic founding values of our nation by equating smoking with taxation without representation. <b>Hayes</b>: "You are wrong. Many of the Founding Fathers grew and shipped tobacco and hemp. They would laugh at you." <b>RR</b>: I daresay that they would laugh at you trying to equate smoking rights with taxation without representation. Those particular founding fathers are the forerunners of the tobacco companies.... what would you expect them to say? Are you implying that they are neutral and have no self-interest involved? <b>Hayes</b>: "You can go somewhere else that is non smoking. You could even ask them to put it out. Most smokers won't intentionally blow at you if they know you've got some tear duct problem and are about to cry." <b>RR</b>: Very funny. See this is exactly the problem. Smokers pay lip service to being courteous but almost never follow up. Yeah, a friend, acquaintance, or table-mate may put the cig out upon request, but the blowhard sitting two tables away too often will tell me to go screw myself. BTW, thanks for mocking our concern and taking it so "seriously." LOL.... <b>Hayes</b>: "I think for you to go somewhere and say 'I know you allow smoking here, but I don't like smoke, so stop,' is an unwarranted intrusion. I do not ask for Kielbasa at a Mexican restaurant. I do not go and demand that a lesbian club gives me membership. I do not go to AA and demand that I be allowed to drink. There ARE places that cater to both YOU, the non smoker, and to ME, the smoker. Why do you insist that you must come a place you don't want to be and change it, when there are OTHER PEOPLE who come there because they like it? I am not saying there can be smoking everywhere. That I can light up in a non smoking restaurant. YOU are the one advocating reducing MY rights. As a smoker it is a fact that I smoke. To assemble with people like me there will be smoking. To ban that in public places, or in locations specifically built to allow it, is ludicrous and overreaching." <b>RR</b>: To ask for Kielbasa in a Mexican restaurant is just plain stupid. Thank you for another valid, uplifting, and informative illustration of the non-smoker's plight! LOL. Don't you get it? By forcing me to breather your second hand smoke, you are de facto forcing me to be a smoker-- although granted much less intense etc. This is where we get to the place where we ask outselves: Is the air naturally filled with these noxious chemicals or not. That is the norm. Therefore not-smoking is the default position. Who is asking who to change, now?! When in hell have smokers ever "assembled?" That's a dishonest characterization wherein you try to cloak your pathetic argument in the garments of civil liberty. <b>Hayes</b>: "Yes, that it good. Who needs a REASON to take a position? Any time we're trying to decide if a particular public policy should be enacted, we should FEEL our way along. The Maharishi Rich Rocket will show us the way... " <b>RR</b>: I don't need science to validate my point. It is immaterial. If I'm a Maharishi, I have a helluva lot of followers-- more than you. By the way, that choking/coughing experience I have is not a "feeling." It is a really uncomfortbale reqction to your noxious fumes. That is reason enough, don't you get it? <b>Hayes</b>: "If I'm a boxer, you can't come stand in the ring when I'm fighting and expect not to be at risk of getting hit. If you are a non smoker, and you come into a place that allows smoking, you should expect to be 'irritated' by the smoke." <b>RR</b>: Boxing takes place in a ring and is contained there. Smoking takes place almost everywhere and the pollutants go airborne and travel-- remote sucker-punching if you will. We don't see boxers walking around the mezzaning at Compaq Center throwing jabs at passers-by do we? <b>Hayes</b>: "The funny part is that if we allowed NO SMOKING accept in one club per town, we'll call it the SMOKING CLUB. Privately run. No litter problems. I guarantee you within a year max, a non smoker would sue for membership. And then demand a non smoking room. And then demand smoking be banned." <b>RR</b>: And exactly how would such a development harm you the way non-smokers are being harmed by your smoking. Damn, I think you're about to see the light now." <b>Hayes</b>: "You guys are crazy. I'm glad we've had this discussion. It goes to show how little the public cares about liberties of others when that perspective is unpopular." <b>RR</b>: Nonsmokers have liberties as well.
Hayes: I think the main problem for those who don't smoke is that smoking directly effects their environment in enclosed spaces and the market hasn't adjusted. Currently, in Houston, there is ONE nightclub that bans smoking and ONLY for matinee shows - Mucky Duck. Unless you like folk music or celtic, you won't be interested in going there though I have gone to shows there before that have been great. Beyond that, there are ZERO clubs in the city that offer a non-smoking environment. How does that exactly cater to the non-smoking market? Also, I read in the Chronicle recently that approximately 30% of restaurant space in Houston is dedicated to smokers and fewer than 10% of the restaurants are non-smoking. In addition, fewer than 20% actually separate the smokers into another room with separate ventilation. Most are simply divided by an imaginary line which means a smoking table could still be right next to a non-smoking table in theory. The market has not adjusted because they don't want to just like chemical companies don't want to adjust their polluting the air because it costs them money, which is the reason why the government has to crack down on them. I wish we could count on business to fix the problems but, in some situations, you simply cannot.
One other thing on this whole "free market" issue. What about health care? Smoking-related illnesses that are COMPLETELY preventable result in billions of dollars in healthcare costs every year. Guess who those costs are passed on to. If you guessed the consumer, you'd be right. For those of us who don't have company health insurance benefits, I resent having to watch my premiums increase because of the costs related to diseases that could be prevented if the victim stopped smoking continue to increase simply because the victim won't stop smoking.
Yes, but the tax revenue from cigarettes is too lucrative for the government to want smoking eliminated. (I think lobbyists have something to do with that position, also). By the same token, the tobacco lawsuits-- if you think the government asked or settled for a "fair" compensation, you're way off. They squeezed the goose for as many gold eggs as they could get without killing it. Given the way the government handles tobacco-- it's got its hands in the pot one way or another, every step of the way, from subsidizing tobacco growers to allowing corporate welfare for companies like Philip Morris to the tax on a pack of cigarettes to providing healthcare for smokers to suing tobacco companies.... ....I can't believe mar1juana is illegal. You'd think the avarice of the lawmakers would outweigh their avowed moral objection to legalization.
Politicians have to get elected to ensure that they have a chance to be corrupt! Seriously, though. I'm with you here... the public doesn't even seem that opposed to it. Not like there are any lines in the bible "Thou Shalt Not Smoke Pot." I guess I'd chalk it up to sheer inertia. Much harder to get the law changed than keep it the same...
It's pretty dumb to go to a smoking club and expect to have smoke-free air. That is the point Hayes was making, nothing more. What exactly are we arguing here anyway? I mean what are the two sides proposing. Illegalization of cigarettes vs. not??
Mold? Dust mites? Puh-lease. Not in this case. I don't buy the virus diagnosis either (which wasn't even a diagnosis, really, just speculation). It was sitting in that grey haze breathing in tar for three hours that did it. Some people are just really bothered by second-hand smoke. This is a fact that you cannot dispute. It doesn't mean that they are allergic to tobacco or anything; they are just really bothered by it. Not really. I have pretty much quit the bar scene since this happened (also to save money, but mostly because the smoke irritates me). The only place I really go to now is a certain billiards club with a huge non-smoking area, so it isn't too bad. But, I haven't even been going there very often lately. Going to the same place all the time gets old. I'd <b>like</b> to go club-hopping once and a while, but the smoke makes it too much of a hassle, so I don't even bother anymore.
<b>JayZ750</b>: "It's pretty dumb to go to a smoking club and expect to have smoke-free air. That is the point Hayes was making, nothing more." <b>RR</b>: What is a smoking club? Is that a club that does not disallow smoking or a club that promotes smoking? I wish there were promotional smoking clubs so that the rest of the clubs could be smoke-free-- that would be fairer to the general populace. I will never do business with a place that I know is promoting smoking. I don't expect them to change-- just control their polution. Do you really think I'm complaining about a facility that is operated to PROMOTE smoking and I want them to stop? What I want stopped is going anywhere (unlike a Smoker's Club) where you shouldn't expect to have to deal with smoking and then having to live with it or walk out?
game set and match --winner Hayes Street.. Jeff in my personal attack on or your music it was simply to prove the flaw in your argument that you were basing it on your beliefs ( not the spirit of a free country is it???) your beliefs and feelings on my life and what I want is how oppressive laws are made and not in the spirit of the country or even the persona (on the bbs) you try so hard to make us believe that you are... you come across on this bbs as such a do gooder and yet your opinons (ie this one on smoking) your arguments speak otherwise...I just wanted to point out something and if not obvious to me through time it has been.. step away from the 'good unto all man' persona you carry here and admit that you have feelings against what may be inherently right or in the spirit of political correctness and I wont call you out... by the way i do have a deep respect for your work on saving the rockets and I can respect that despite your opinons..I am willing to except and spot that as difference then the image/man you want us here to believe that you are... just like me its okay to be un- PC but...too PC or 'mister do right' is a joke... by the way thank you for reading my whole crap post
You know....I mentioned that I was in a club last weekend where the smoke really bothered my eyes. It was a packed bar, and there were quite a few people smoking. I'm not a big clubber, but I've been to enough places in my life to know that this is not rare. Smoky bars exist everywhere. Still, it's possible that other people have never been to a place with a lot of cigarette smokers, and if I'm speaking to you, then I.....at least to a small degree....apologize for what I'm about to say. I think you have no place in this conversation, but perhaps I shouldn't be so harsh with your sensitivities. Also, I realize that I shouldn't result to "name calling"--even if the shoe fits. Still, I feel this must be said: If you've EVER been in a smoky bar and you think for one minute that second hand smoke is not harful to anyone, you're nothing but a God-damned ****ing moron!
I didn't realize it was a contest. First, beliefs are inherently opinion. I don't BELIEVE that my suggestion was oppressive and I don't BELIEVE that protecting my right to breathe is un-American. But, that is MY belief, not yours, so I'll keep right on thinking it. Personally, I don't care what you or ANYONE on this board thinks. Are you kidding? If 99% of the people here walked past me in the street, I wouldn't know it. I don't try to hide behind a persona. I actually use my own name to post here. You've seen my picture. Hell, most of you could easily find my address. Some have even been in my house. What's YOUR name? What do YOU look like? Where do YOU live? It's pretty easy to sit in anonymity and criticize. For all we know, you could be a 14-year old or a woman. At least, I show myself. My opinion on smoking simply disagrees with yours. Big freakin' deal. I have lots of opinions that differ with all kinds of people. My wife doesn't like sports or au grautin potatoes but I do. Good LORD, I guess I'll have to divorce her and admit that I'm an idiot. 'good unto all man' persona? What the **** does that mean? Just because I believe it and you don't, I'm inherently wrong? Last time I checked, even RichRocket, who vehemently disagrees with me on many things, agreed with me on this one. How horribly shocking! I don't even believe in right and wrong. Haven't you read my posts? Wow, gee thanks. That makes all the difference. The fact that you can respect me DESPITE my opinions and the fact that I am obviously some phoney who gets off on proving how cool and wonderful he is to total strangers ON THE INTERNET is just so touching. Next time, I'll be sure and seek your approval when I post something that I think might fall into the 'mister do right' category. God forbid I actually do what I say because I'm obviously not the person I say I am. In fact, I'm really a 65-year-old mother of 4 (grandmother of 7) who lives in the Ozarks. You found me out!
no you are not a do gooder ( or really want us to believe you to be) and I suppose this isnt a quote from you then in another thread: "One thing I would suggest is that all businesses and individuals be required to participate in 20 hours of community service work every year. Just donate 20 hours. It isn't much but it is something. Mentor a student. Feed the homeless. Visit a nursing home. Plant some trees. Help build some low cost housing. Volunteer at an AIDS clinic. " it reminds me of the teacher on beavis and butthead...c*m-ba-yah... all I have done is pi$$ed you off so its useless but my quote from you above from a post I found JUST NOW WITHOUT EVEN LOOKING QUITE BY ACCIDENT sorry I couldnt resist...classic jeff (persona) I would submit that you are somewhere closer to normal ( not the persona) then all the things you suggest on this bbs.. and I can see you with your birkenstocks on just getting more and more pissed even though this is THE INTERNET.. I agree with your suggestions above and I agree they all sound nice...lets not relate saving the rockets to any of the things above as it is just a team....yes we all benefitted by it and you 'did something' as you say that you believed thats why I use the respect word... take it how you want...but you dont need to have my respect anyway or anyone else here so I suppose you havent read this far and I am just another .. I'll just go back to what I was doing with ethel and betsy and continue our walk down memory lane during the vaudeville days and remember how great the roaring 20's were...
no wait sorry that was you I am the one thats a 14 year old woman whats the age of consent in the US??..last time I checked we arent in the amazon... you crack me up..
no wait sorry that was you I am the one thats a 14 year old woman whats the age of consent in the US??..last time I checked we arent in the amazon... you crack me up..i was going to ask you advice about something musical but now its too late..
you know... through all this arguing, I don't think anyone answered GB's 3 questions straight up. Instead its been turned into a debate on social ethics, scientific data evaluation, and politics(okay it was only one post, but slightly controversial none the less) Why? It passes the time, gives a little buzz in moderation, and I ACTUALLY like the smell of it on my hands and its taste. What's the rationale? It's short lasting relaxation in a paper tube, I like the smell and taste. Do you WANT to be sick? Yes...I've never been sick, never broken a bone, or had a cavity, and I don't bruise...I'm ready for a change. Seriously, I don't smoke but probably 10 cigs a week. I can't see people smoking a pack a day...that seems so crazy to me. I'm sure one would say "If you think smoking is crazy at all...then why do it?" Why do anything that makes you feel good in moderation but bad in excess? Smoking, alcohol, food...sex(hey try it for 24 hours straight and you'll see what I'm talking about). Also, I think HAYES STREET has a great argument, its tough to debate with someone that has a lot more knowledge about the subject than you.
"Crack" being the operative word. Try putting the pipe down. I meant that. You are suggesting that because I have volunteered my time, I'm Mr. Van Driessen? That's kinda a stretch. While we are digging up quotes... <b>I admit I smoke pot maybe my drug to ease this type of depression but I am not smoking it because of.. as much as I want to...i went through the same torture that you speak about..the holding on..the coldness of how she acted after the fact..the inability for me to get over the fact we were just friends now...what bullsh*t...this went on from 94 until jan of 2000… whats funny is all along I knew it wasn’t meant to be…but love is screwed up like that I suppose...okay maybe I still love her…I admit..but I am in touch with the torture side...it took me 6 years and sadly it may take you that long...and here I am sitting saying final cut and sure enough I will see her again… and stab myself twenty more times at least..but at least I can know how to not be sad and I made the biggest strides I could have made...</b> Ok, 6 years...riiiight. and... <b>Call me cynical, bitter, whatever…but I don’t need medication or psychologist…I need my own inner strength that’s all I have...</b> Yeah, that and POT!!! I'm not sure what your obsession is, but you need to put down the keyboard and slowly back away. How can you possibly know who I am away from this BBS? How can you have any clue? Maybe if you took a minute to clear the haze of smoke from around your monitor, you'd become lucid enough to figure that maybe you are just acting like a nut. What is normal? I don't own birkenstocks. I'm sitting here in a pair of socks if you are interested. Very surreal. I'll just go stand over here now.
