Larry Flynt and the Democrats go to war together again- YUCK!

I agree. And those WASPs in central Ohio have every right to express their disgust about it. And if they choose to exclude those gay couples who frolic in public from their social and community life, that is also their right. What no one has a right to do is to "force" those WASPs in central Ohio to "accept" anyone.

Thought Police, here we come!

 

I just wanted to comment on two things:

1) Jerry Falwell

There were several excellent posts about Falwell in this thread, but I liked what MadMax said the best. My problem with Falwell is that he is a "self-righteous" Christian & those are the worst kind, IMO. They are the ones that turn people, who are interested or curious in bringing Christ into their life, off. These "prospects" look at Falwell & feel that they have to be perfect. Well, guess what? Only one individual is perfect & that was Christ. I know that he and Pat Robertson and others mean well, but I just think that they turn so many people away from Christianity by their actions, e.g. blaming the 9-11 attacks on gays, abortionists, etc. It's like they feel that they have this great power and they have wound up abusing it.

2) homosexuality

Once again, some very good posts, especially by MM, but I would like to add the following. When I went through confirmation at the Episcopal Church last spring (I had changed from being a Methodist), homosexuality was something we discussed. I definitely don't agree with it, and I admit that I don't understand it. I brought up with my priest that homosexuals use the excuse that they can't help being that way, they were born like that. He being a former doctor feels that being a homosexual is genetic (which surprised me that he would say that). However, he went on to say, just like someone else in this thread(probably MM), that people who are alcoholics are in the same situation. They have a pre-disposition toward becoming an alcoholic just like someone born with homosexual "tendencies" have a pre-disposition to becoming a homosexual. The problem is that homosexuality is getting to the point of not being considered a problem like alcoholism, and one may argue that it is being glorified. Ask yourself the following question: when was the last time that you saw a "alcoholics pride" parade?

Now, Outlaw, I don't care how you live your life. That is not my place to judge you. Only one being can judge someone and that is God. However, I hope you understand where I'm coming from in feeling that homosexuality is a genetic problem like alcoholism. My dad's dad died of alcoholism when I was 5. He wasn't strong enough to fight the disease, and he died way too early because of it (he was 55). I'm not going to compare my grandfather's alcoholism to your homosexuality; however, I said this to make you think. I'm just wondering if you have ever looked at things this way. However, if you feel you don't have a problem, then it's going to be impossible for you to really listen to this fairly.

 

Why should homosexuality be considered a problem, or a disease?

 

As long as they are not discriminating in employment or threatening persons, this is true. However, those folks (not all WASPs, just one's you describe this way) have no protections from being called unChristian-like, inhumane, bigots by the rest of us. Similarly, many Neo-Nazi's have the same protections as well and also try to justify their attitudes and actions using religious tennets--we can't force them how to think or stop them in their actions (at least if it is nonviolent expression), but that doesn't stop the rest of us from isolating them and limiting their attempts at persuading others to join their cause.

On another point, all bodies of mainstream mental and physical health practicianers (Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Social Workers, Counselors, General Physicians, etc.) recognize alcoholism as a treatable disease. Based on reviews of scientific evidence, none of such organizations consider homosexuality as "treatable" nor a ""disease"/"disorder". Now you might find a few such practicianers more guided by their religious beliefs than science, and come to different conclusions about homosexuality, but that is not the norm for those who have tried to study the matter objectively.

 

Well, some Christians would like to call it a disease/disorder that could be treated if it was proven to be genetic. That would be the easiest way to keep both the Bible and God mistake free without sounding completely idiotic.

 

Replace gay with black person, or someone of asian descent and you would have a serious problem. There are/were companies and organizations that were disgusted with being "forced" to have black people part of their organization. But is it their right to exclude black people from it? If it is people would call them prejudice. What the heck is the difference with people doing this to gay people?

 

In the workplace, I agree RM. But in social settings - which is what's being discussed here - totally different story.

You can "force" someone to work with someone they don't like. And personally I support that in many cases (did I mention I'm pro-affirmative action?) But in social settings, don't bother. You can't make any group like someone they are ideologically opposed to.

 

Pued and RM95:

I normally stay silent on issues like these because it's been my experience in reading threads in the past on topics like this one, it doesn't do alot of good to argue. However, I guess you could say that I have very strong feelings about homosexuality. It would probably be safe to say that I am a homophobe.

I'll ask this question: if you do something that is not normal, like drink in excess (with alcohol), get high off drugs, etc. then wouldn't you agree with me that you have a problem whether it's a drinking problem or a drug problem? Homosexual behavior is not normal behavior! Period. Personally, I could care less if someone is a homosexual, but where I have a problem is that this type of behavior is being glorified and even flaunted at times. As I said earlier, if the unusual behavior is deemed to be okay or even, *gasp*, normal, then of course, people who have these behavior patterns are not going to change. Why should they? That is what bothers me.

This is just an issue that I feel very strongly about. I don't hate homosexuals; I try to get along with everybody. However, I don't really know any people who came out personally. I have had suspicions that they were gay, but I didn't know for sure. But if I found out that they were gay, that wouldn't make a difference. The reason is that people that I know that I think are gay are people that I don't spend extra time with, i.e. going over to the house, doing things after work, etc. I would still treat them with respect and in a professional way, but I would not want to be around them in a one-on-one situation.

I am not going to keep going on and on about this. I figured that I have said enough. I know that my opinion on this is probably not a popular one, but I respect and appreciate everyone listening to it.

 

As I said earlier, if the unusual behavior is deemed to be okay or even, *gasp*, normal, then of course, people who have these behavior patterns are not going to change. Why should they? That is what bothers me.

Well, slavery was once considered "normal". So I believe that behavior patterns are subject to change, Manny. Perhaps there is hope after all!

My feelings basically mirror those of tree and Manny. I have a few friends who are homosexual and they just want to be left alone basically. I actually agree with that; they have the right to be who they are, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. No argument from me because as a hetero I want to be left alone too.

 

Why does it have to be normal for it to be good (or not evil)?

It's not normal to be a Rockets' fan, most people aren't. Does that make us evil? It's not normal to be American, most of the world isn't. Does that make us evil?

There is nothing wrong with being homosexual, and what people thousands of years ago wrote under the guise of the spirit of God will never change my opinion on that.

 

rm95 -- i think you "know me" well enough now to know i'm not making stuff up to make me "feel better" about the Bible. i sort of resent the implication.

 

I honestly don't mean that in a bad way. I'm just saying that your reasoning on the subject may have occured because you don't believe the Bible has mistakes, or that God makes mistakes.

I understand that, I respect that, I just don't agree with that.

Let's not ruin the good run of late!

 

the last line in your post literally made me laugh out loud!!

fair enough...i just want you to know i didn't make a blind decision or conclusions about the Bible...i don't say the things about it that i do because i feel i need to be in line with what would be considered orthodox..

someday we should have a real discussion about the Bible...maybe over that beer before the dave matthews concert!!

 

No, no, no...I tried that with my brother, and I'll be surprised if he ever talks to me again. Well, at least with us, I'd have nothing personal to throw in your face when you tell me that reading Harry Potter is evil (my brother, not you).

My basic belief when it comes to the Bible is this-it's a tremendous guide to how one should live their life for God. I believe that cultural influences, whether in the first draft or in the numerous translations, have added extraneous information that lead people to debate over what I feel are pretty much meaningless things (i.e. things that don't hurt other people such as homosexuality, eating meat, reading Harry Potter).

 

do you believe in God, rm95?? just curious...

 

Yes.

 

I love this BBS sometimes .... today certainly was one of those times.

Reading a fairly intelligent discourse covering all the things that shape a great deal of our individual sensibilities ..... sex,politics,money,religion .... in a dang sports fan bulletin board .... I love it.

Cheers,all.