Who here thinks Kenny and Griffin competing has likely improved both of their play, and in a shorter period of time? Is Kenny benefitting from being guarded by a shotblocker, and is Griffin benefitting from guarding a fast, <b>determined</b> PF? What about their rebounding? Forget how you use them in the future...player improvement in the present is always a positive...no matter how you slice it. <font size="1">Set aside the who should start argument...please, there are so many other threads...and DaDakota, please set aside the trade Kenny talk for after we find out about Mo's rehab,,,fair enough?</font> <b>Depth Chart Competition: In a late Playoff Run, you want Griffin and KT at peak performance</b> Remember, this is a study in hindsight. Everyone thought this was a playoff team before Francis went down. in my experience, the benefit of healthy depth chart competition is both players get better. in my experience, playoff bound coaches give the tenured player the start until the rookie beats him in practice. This is especially true in sports where players actually go head-to-head in practice, unlike Baseball, for instance. All indications, including Griffins own remarks, were that Kenny was getting the better of him in camp. If Griffin gets 35 mpg from the start of the season after Kenny beat him in camp, and Kenny gets only 16 mpg, do you get the same type of depth chart competition. Does Kenny improve as much...does he keep competing as heavily in practice. Does he become a Stat Padder in his 16 minutes, or worse, is he as improved and ready in waiting in the middle of a playoff race should Griffin hit the rookie wall at 35mpg from day one...or get injured. <b>End result is two front liners prepared for a playoff run</b> At least that was the initial plan of the coaches, you must agree. Do you agree this team would need them both in a playoff run? They both look ahead of schedule to me. (come on, who really thought Griffin would deliver ROY numbers like this before the All-Star game, much less Dec 20th), and Kenny looks like the most improved Rocket. To me, these two are the bright spots in a dismal season. <b>Why the continued complaints about Player Management</b> Since they are both doing better than expected, complaints about Rudy's approach to depth chart competition between KT/Griffin is a marginal argument, that seems mainly to have been built out of frustration with a losing streak, and uncreative rotations that only allow one PF on the court at a time. By marginal, I mean that probably not much difference would be seen in the season's final win column had we just handed to Griffin those Pau Gasol minutes from the start. Complaints that Rudy still wouldn't be using Griffin to this day had the injuries not occured...are just plain Rudy bashing.
As I stated in another thread, I am very impressed with how Rudy has handled this situation. I think he was right to start Kenny, and keep Kenny starting as long as he keeps playing well. I also think that Rudy has given EG just enough playing time, increasing more and more as he played better and better. EG is now the first player off the bench, usually. And the competition between these two players DOES seem to have made a difference. Like you say, HP, both are playing better right now than most people would have expected, I think, and the competition is the reason for it (or a big reason).
hmmm....looks like this will fall in to a redundant thread rather quickly, with comments like this. Let's say Kenny never got his starting role back after Eddie emerged on Dec 20th, yet they both still are getting 30+ mpg as they are right. My thread would still be asking the same question. Did the October and November handling of the situation allow both players to improve, where Kenny might not have otherwise? I know you answered that question, but watch how your "Kenny should still start" will attract a redundant argument. This thread is NOT about should EG start now. In fact, I say it is a marginal argument at best, because we already have the improvement in both players.
As it was handled: Griffin has turned into a potential super-star. The alternative: He may or may not have turned into a potential super-star. I like the current set up.
Ahhh, HP. Now you have just set me up as your scapegoat in case your thread turns to crap!!! As you saw, I did answer your specific question from your post. But the rest was an answer towards the general wording of your thread title. To me, who is starting is just as big a factor in how "well" Rudy handled the Griffin/KT situation.
Was this really a "Rudy Decision" or was this situation a victim of coicumstance? Would they have both excelled in this manner if they were performing for backup minutes to Mo and Rice? The question of playing Grif more minutes before he earned it away from KT really is strange because had Willis not hit the old man wall, I doubt Grif would have gotten more play time. Rudy is helplessly devoted to vetrans, unless the rookies can hit game winning shots at the buzzer. I'll just inadvertantly "Rudy bash" and say the Rockets "pulled a Homer." (as in, the injuries messed them up so bad, something good came out of it unintentionally.)
Crispee, agree the competition between them has made them better, especially KT. Maybe Eddie could have produced like he is now from the start of the season, however the way he has taken a while to get major minutes will also probably mean he won't hit the rookie wall sometime in March. Smeg
Whether it is Riddy bashing who cares, but do you believe Eddie's minutes would be the same now if Mo was in the Mix and how might this have effected his development ???
Another repetitive comment...sigh. I still don't get where this come from. To me, the issue that started all this was Kenny vs Cassell, and we won two titles those years...so what is the point??? I swear, aside from that, I've always thought Rudy plays the rookie significant minutes as fast as any coach, especially when we were a major contender from Horry to Mobley/Dickerson. Horry Cassell Maloney (beat out Brent Price who still played 72 games) Rhodes (nearly 20 mpg with Drexler, Eddie Johnson and Mario) Dickerson Mobley (rapid decision to replace Maloney with a SG) Francis Kenny (Rogers deserved the minutes, but Kenny got the nod for 25mpg) Collier (Hakeem was actually asking to play more) Torres Griffin all started clocking 20 mpg before February or got more minutes than anyone thought they deserved...especially Collier!!!! To me, this proves that regardless to why Rudy plays his rookies, he has them ready to play. Which means, he has a strong philosophy to get his rookies their opportunities. He gives them their necessary reps. <b>one point never mentioned in all this</b>, this includes 3 drafts years with no 1st round draft picks...1994, 95, 96...so there is no rookie to even play. At some point, trying to say Rudy's hands were forced in all those circumstances is meaningless...it is second-guessing a coach just to prove him wrong.
I don't think the competition with Griffin has much to do with Thomas' improvement. He was obviously on a mission in the offseason even before the injury to Mo Taylor. He slimmed down and improved his game before he ever had a shootaround with Eddie Griffin. I think Thomas' improvement was self-motivated and, when he got the starting nod, he was simply given a forum to show what he can really do. Griffin having to compete with Thomas to get minutes may have made him work harder and improve more. However, I don't think any of this has anything at all to do with why Rudy manages his rotation the way he does. Rudy wants to make everyone, especially rookies, earn what they get. It (1) Encourages a work ethic. (2) Avoids destroying morale (what a morale killer it would be for Thomas to have Rudy say, 'You're playing great but we need to develop this kid so you aren't going to get the minutes you deserve.'). (3) Allows players time to work their way out of slumps In short, the rotation is not based on getting the most out of both players, even if that is one net effect. The reason is to maintain a healthy team chemistry where no one feels cheated.
My complaint about the Rudy's approach to the depth chart is based on the simple fact that I just can't get enough of Eddie Griffin. I haven't been this excited about a player since the Rockets drafted Sampson and Dream, sorry Steve. I know players need time on the bench and time to develop but I love watching basketball the way Eddie plays it and I sit in anticipation for Eddie returning to the floor every time he is on the bench. Oh...and I like KT also.
Rudy is not from the Phil Jackson school. I think Larry Smith said Rudy approaches every player and rookie the same, 2nd rounder, or 2nd overall. If they can play, they'll play. The competition between the two is fun to watch. They're making each other better, as you said-Griffin gets to practice against a guy that'll go right at him, and KT practices getting his shot off against a fierce shotblocker. Hopefully, this will also affect the centers, making them earn their minutes, as we saw vs. NYK. It may also make sure Mo works hard all the time, with great competition. Anyone else notice how Mo has been propping up Eddie lately? It'll be interesting to see how he comes back. Griff came way ahead of schedule, and Rudy has done the best he could to work him in.
Is Rice still injured. Remember, Mo and Kenny only had 26 mpg last year. Eating into the SF and center minutes still gets Eddie on the court early for a look at his defense and rebounding. If you don't think Rudy doesn't give his defense a look...I don't know. To me, the issue in this thread is not minutes, it is depth chart competition in practice. Minutes or not in the game, Eddie got his 2nd Quarter looks with Francis pretty early on. I still think he gets those in your scenario. I still think Eddie improves at the same clip. Also, we could really trade Kenny if Mo' never got injured. So, maybe we just showcase Kenny and trade him by the trading deadline, and Eddie still gets the minutes. In your scenario, would Thomas improve at the same clip is the real question. He needs time in practice against Eddie or real time on the court; Mo' isn't making him better. I definitely think Rudy is going to make his starter (Mo' in this case) go after Eddie in practice. Kenny would get reps behind Mo, but Eddie would be the main defender against both of them. You see what I mean here. Eddie still improves at defending NBA quality players...he said it was a strength and speed thing that he needed to adjust to. In your scenario, if both Kenny and Eddie improve at the same clip as this year, I honestly believe Rudy seriously considers adjusting his offense to accommodate 3 23-27mpg PFs, a lot earlier than normal. I'd go so far to say that we are more successful on offense, allowing Rudy to concentrate on defense in practice. Then figuring out how to use a zone to get Eddie key minutes. The center mins go down sooner. Even the championship Detroit Pistons played 5 PF/Cs at 23-27 mpg. So, no Eddie doesn't get 30+ minutes, but none of them do. He'd get key 4th Q minutes, nonetheless, no garbage time. By the end of the year, Rudy would seriously look at starting 2 of the 3 if Rice still got injured. I really think Rudy is now grooming Eddie to make Cato be more active in games or lose his minutes.
You don't think Kenny being defended by a shotblocker in practice is helping? Compare that to him being defended by Mo' last year. Mo' must give you a false sense of success. hehe...j/k Juan, I agree with you. crash, take solace in the fact that Dream only averaged 36 mpg his first 8 seasons, so Eddie is only 4 minutes off that pace for his last 5 games playing with Kenny. Remember, fresher legs in the 4th = more clutch blocks and rebounds.
Crispee -- I agree that who starts i relatively meaningless and that to play a productive Kenny Thomas fewer minutes is probably not a great idea either. BUT With the talent that Eddie has and the desperate need the Rockets have had all year for a defensive presence in the lane, he should have been playing big minutes from the get-go, and particularly as soon as Steve got injured, instead of 10 games after that. If Eddie is playing 30 minutes a game, there is no reason Kenny can't also play 30 minutes, and vice versa. Eddie gets the 18 PF mins that Kenny isn't at PF. Eddie gets another 12 at C or SF or some undefined position for that matter. Eddie would have had his breakout game much sooner had he been playing bigger minutes earlier in the year.
Not according to Eddie, he said the slow start was because he had to adjust to "a faster game...a more mental game." But, ya' know, I guess he said that to protect Rudy. Consider this, in the losing streak we went 12 games (I don't know how many days) without one practice. Do you think a rookie could use practice to make sure he understands the offense? I could hear Rudy say to Eddie, "We are going to help you get involved; stay patient." Remember, Torres had his "break out" games before Griffin, and got minutes out of the gate. So, to say Rudy doesn't play rookies ignores what he did with Torres. Torres was just more comfortable earlier, because he is 25 yrs old. And btw: Tinsley is as old as Francis.
This is exactly how I wanted Griff to come along. Yeah, he has a ton of potential, but I don't think he should be given anything. He should earn his spot, and that is what he is doing. The only thing I want him to improve on(besides his weight) is his post moves. Yeah, I know the system right now is based on the guards, but throw a legitimate post up threat into the mix and our team can only get better. Not only would it create open shots, but it would take some pressure off our guards to have to be the ones to carry the load all of the time. Not saying he has to be the center of the offense, like Duncan, but I know he can be extremely effective in a lot of matchups. I remember his awesome Rasheed-like turnaround j in the Revue. If you can nail down that kind of a shot consistently - I don't see any reason why he can't be a premiere post up threat in the league. KT has proven that he is a solid starter - as a pf and sf imo. The only aspect of his game I would like to see him really improve upon is his passing. He tends to take some bad shots when he is doubled and tripled after he does his good drives and needs to learn to find the open man IF he isn't in a position to put up a good shot. I wish Rudy would take him a little to task on that. I hope he can learn to be an effective bench player if he does end up staying on this team, which I suspect he will.
