Point being is compared to someone on this board who is constantly praised for his defense, Rudy Gay is no scrub, and exceeds Battier in one defensive category, while not lagging far behind in the other category.
Adding Gay's size to Yao's size is positive compounding interest. Adding Gay's athleticism to Yao's unathleticism balances the frontcourt athleticism.
Stro had negative value and a bad contract when we traded him, and he isn't any better now. Don't underestimate the power of good salary management. Salary cap intelligence is why Boston has been able to jump to the top of the east this year, and why NY is doomed for at least 2 more years. In any case, the ESPN article is way too optimistic about Gay. What he's shown so far is a skill level equal to Corey Maggette. Not too shabby, but these kinds of players are really not that special. Gay hasn't shown any unusual basketball intelligence or leadership skills yet, which is the main limitation on upside. Even if he gets better, he's more likely to become just another glorified role player, along the lines of Gerald Wallace, Caron Butler, Luol Deng, Tayshaun Prince, Rip Hamilton, Richard Jefferson, Vince Carter, etc. It would take a VERY significant improvement for him to get to the level of Carmelo Anthony or Josh Howard (excellent players, but unlikely to carry a team to a championship). Even that level is far below the MVP-caliber swingmen (healthy TMac, Nowitzki, LeBron, Kobe).
It's beyond the statistics. Rudy Gay's court awareness and defensive technique are good, but his footspeed is bad for his position in the NBA and he doesn't have the strength to make up for it. Battier's footspeed is above average for NBA small forwards, and he's one of the strongest small forwards in the league. Battier is more athletic than Gay in ways that are meaningful for defense.
ok fine. But that still wasnt what I was doing. im talking about gay and gay alone. And i never said gay was a scrub either, just a poor defensive player. Gay does get steals and blocks due to his athleticism, but that doesnt mean he is a good defensive player. He is far from it.
Roy is great, but Gay is raw still. It is notable that a crappy Memphis team actualy plays crappier when Rudy is on the court. http://www.82games.com/0708/0708MEM.HTM Anyone got explanation?
Roland rating is -.3 for Gay but Battier is -.2 . Battier does have him beat in all other +/- rated categories, but I think that's probably due to Gay being on a worse team that can't defer attention the way Yao and McGrady can. Yao when he's allowed to be planted in the paint also alters or blocks a lot of shots from people that get by on the perimeter. The Grizzlies don't have that. Also its expected to have more negative efficiency when you're apart of one of the worst teams in the league. Plus if you're going to argue +/- as an indicator Landry had negative efficiency on the court during the Spurs game despite being a huge impact in hustle play. I think under the right defensive coach he could be a bigger impact on the court.
I think many people here would be jumping up and down for joy if the Rockets got any of those players you named (Gerald Wallace, Hamilton, Butler, Deng, and Prince especially). It is admirable that there are people who will defend the Battier-Gay trade to the death, but y'all are in the minority. As the years go by, that trade is going to be more and more lopsided for the Grizzlies. So, unless the Rockets win the NBA Championship this season or the next, it was a bad trade. Period.
So by this logic, we win on the Battier/Gay trade? Give me a break. There's so many random variables that go into the success of an NBA team. I seriously doubt trading away mr. intangibles Battier has led to the decline of the Grizzlies as an NBA squad. And despite your claim that Gay has "below average" footspeed for his position, he's still managing to put up nearly 20 points a game on terrific shooting percentages. Apparently his severe lack of footspeed hasn't affected his scoring and driving. I agree that Gay might not have great "lateral" quickness, but his height and long arms probably make up for it. I don't see how you get off saying Gay is not athletic enough for his position, when nearly everyone else routinely acknowledges Gay as the best athlete in his draft class. It makes little sense. What makes even less sense is saying Battier has above average footspeed for an NBA small forward. If anything, I'd say Battier is about average.
The Rockets blew it. It's not even worth debating anymore. Just throw in the towel. It was a hideous mistake and it will haunt the franchise for years. I'd just like to know which GM pushed for the trade and how much input JVG had over the decision.
That's the most ridiculous argument that you've made yet. To be fair, lots of posters make the same ridiculous argument. If the Rockets are a good team without winning the NBA Championship, while the Grizzlies stay in the basement for the rest of Rudy Gay's rookie contract, the Rockets will have still "won" the trade, no matter what kind of fantasy numbers Gay puts up.
Before the draft (when I assumed players like Gay and Roy would not be available at our pick) I was campaigning rather heavily for the Rockets to take Ronnie Brewer. He has turned out to be a pretty decent player.
There's no question in my mind. Going from Fratello to Iavaroni didn't help, but the biggest affect was getting rid of the player that made up for all of the bad defenders that they had on the team. It doesn't affect his shooting, but it certainly affects his driving on good defenders. Gay is relatively easily turned into a jump-shooter. It's because "nearly everyone" concentrates on the straight-line speed and leaping ability portions of athleticism, where Gay is good. "Nearly everyone" ignores strength and footspeed, where Gay is bad. Maybe we're mincing words, but Battier's footspeed is in the top 15 among SF's in the league. That and his incredible strength have more to do with his great defense than his anticipation, feel for the game, or "intangibles". Next time the Rockets play the Pistons, Spurs, or the Bulls, compare Battier to Luol Deng, Bruce Bowen, or Tayshaun Prince. His lateral quickness compared to guys like that is what makes him such a valuable defender.
What's so ridiculous about it? The owner himself said that the team was going for it all - meaning winning an NBA championship. You obviously don't get it; we sacrificed our future to try to win in the present and it isn't looking that great. Maybe things will turn around or maybe Rudy Gay suffers some career-ending injury but it looks like right now that the Rockets management severely overrated Battier (like you are doing) and underrated Gay (like so many other teams did). And speaking of ridiculous - you mind explaining to me with a straight face why you think Battier has better foot speed than Bruce Bowen? It sure is funny how Bowen doesn't allow the Kobe Bryants, Kevin Durants, and Ray Allens of the league go for 40 or more on him, even though Shane has such an edge in superior footspeed. I guess he (Bowen) accomplishes that with his karate kicks. I've heard of being a die-hard homer, but your stance on this goes way beyond that. And you may be happy with us making the 6th to 8th seed in the playoffs and losing in the first round every year with Mr. Intangibles going 1-5 from the field with his token 3 points and giving up 30 plus points to the guy he is guarding, but I won't be and not many others around here will be either. But hey, in your mind, as long as we finish with a better record than the Grizzlies then that is all that matters, right? Yet you don't even acknowledge that if the Rockets had Rudy Gay instead of Battier, that maybe, JUST MAYBE, that #6 seed goes to a #3 or #4 seed and that first round playoff exit goes to a Western Conference finals appearance or even, heaven forbid!, a trip to the NBA Finals!! [sarcasm]But you are right, weslinder, thanks to the God-given slow footspeed and lateral quickness of Rudy Gay, the Rockets made out like bandits in getting rid of him for Battier and it is even more of a steal because the Grizzlies are so terrible while the Rockets are just this team of incredible world beaters.[/sarcasm] So it is pointless to argue with you on this. I'll just ask this one question: Since you are so wrapped around the axle on winning percentages, if the Grizzlies wound up with a better record than the Rockets next season (i.e. the 2008-2009 one), are you going to admit that the Gay-Battier trade was a bad one for the Rockets or not?? Just curious what your excuse will be then.
