Is What Dan Issel said really that offensive?

Not to some. Or even quite a few. Particularly minority groups - for some reason, and I can't pretend to explain it - feel very strong ties with their ethnicity. Maybe we should look at how some ethnic groups feel more connected to their background?

In any case - under those criteria - it's not really flawed. And maybe you can see why some take offense.

It's Rokkit, btw!! Rockit is some other guy!!!

 

But then the standards set in a prior post of mine kick in. At that point, it's a failure of communication rather than an inherently offensive act.

The pc police are out in full on this one.

 

Only if Issel, like you, doesn't see the connection some ethnic groups have to their background. And if, in a fit of heated anger, he made the statement only to 'identify' the person he's speaking to. (But I'm pretty sure the guy knew he was hispanic). I just think that's a hell of a stretch....and again, look at his apology. He was sincere. He knew what kind of context he made the statement in.

As far as pc police...is that supposed to be me you are referring to? If so, you are wrong. I don't think the guy is some sort of out of control racist. I don't even think he should be fired for it or receive further punishment in any way. (Although getting judged for the state of the Nuggest is another argument. )

I'm merely trying to explain why some would find this offensive. Which, I believe, was the whole point of the thread. It just amazes me that people are incapable of making this connection - and maybe that should shed some light on why there are some racial gaps in our society.

But trust me...if you knew me, you would know 'pc police' doesn't fit me at all...

 

Anyone know what was said to Issel to get that type of reaction?

 

This is a judgement call. Whether what Issell said is slightly worse than my scenario simply because I am white and the person Issel was speaking to was Hispanic is a judgement call. They are both racially (in Issel's case, more ethnically than racially) offensive, I am not arguing otherwise. But even if you might think that what Issel said is worse, I still don't think he deserves to be fired over it.

 

That kind of depends. Look at the conversation haven and I are having. I was making the point that many minority groups have a very close connection to their ethnicity...in which case it could be worse. haven doesn't agree with the family/ethnicity comparison. I do think that makes a big difference.

I agree, he shouldn't be fired over it though.

 

I think Issel should get whatever punishment was given to Jason Williams when he made his stupid comment to the Asian fan who was heckling him in Oakland.

 

If someone called me a "****ing German", it also depends on the context, if a friend said it jokingly, I wouldn't mind at all. If someone said it in a derogatory way, I still wouldn't care too much...

But I think that one should not be too hard on the guy...yes, to understand the derogatory nature, one has to look at it in its context. But one also has to consider the context in which the remark was made...heat of the moment, the other guy provoked it, etc. I think if it was somehow recognizable that the guy was from New York (I know, one cannot see that from the face), he might have screamed "You ****ing New Yorker" and I don't think too many people would have thought that is awfully offensive (perhaps Rudy Giuliani or something)....so if there is no history of racially motivated remarks, give the guy the benefit of the doubt and leave it at the fine and do not harp on it, even if the guy is an idiot.

 

Oh, and by the way, shut up, you ****ing Americans, I am always right!!!!

 

From one f***ing mexican to all my BBS brothers...

YES,thats offensive. Although, it not the meanest thing in the world to say and it really doesn't offend me, nor am I easily offended especially about ignorant things like race...but you can't talk like that in public. Talk like that amongst your clansmen, but not in public!

The "f***ing" part is the catch guys.
What are YOU?

Are you a Jew?
Are you a f***ing Jew?
Are you an African?
Are you a f***ing African?
Are you an Asian?
Are you a f***ing Asian?
Are you of the white race?
Are you of the f***ing white race?

Yeah, thats what I though...

 

mr_greezy with the simple to-the-point response. Awesome.

Growing up as a kid, most of my friends were either African American or Mexican. We'd joke about each other's races and stereotypes. I would say things like "wuzzup mexican?" or "those damn mexicans!". They'd fire back at me. We never gave a crap about race and joked about it openly. We got along well enough to do this, and we knew none of us hated one another or were racist. But there's no way in hell I'm going up to some random Hispanic and saying something like Issel said. There's no way to call it "not offensive" -- it was. It's one of those "heat of the moment" responses that may expose some of your hidden beliefs.

 

Its all pretty offensive except for the words "F***ING Utah Jazz"!!!!

 

Which of you guys are fuc*in' Texans?

 

I think that it is ridiculous to say that it is the majority's responsibility to protect the minority for degrading comments. So what you are saying is that if a minority said something offensive to me that it isnt as big of a deal as if I said something to a minority. That is the hypocritical attitude that a lot of minorities have towards white people. I am not racist. I have friends of all races. But what offends me is that it is as if we (white people) owe something to minorities (i.e. Having to be responsible for protecting minorities from degrading comments.) If someone said to me that the minorities have the responsibility to protect me from degrading comments I would say that I am not a baby and that I dont need some one to protect me from what people say. I can handle what people say to me. I have been called all kinds of crappy things. Big deal. I consider the source and could care less. I feel the same way about this Issel thing. He called him a f***ing Mexican. So what. Are you going to go tell your mommy that someone wasnt being nice to you? Is this guy that fragile that he is going to break because someone called him a f***ing Mexican? If he doesnt like it then keep making fun of his crappy team. There are a million worse things that he could have called him. Had he called him one of those million worse things then I could understand the uproar. I am just tired of people acting as if they are going to melt if someone says something not nice to them. There are idiots all over the world and they are going to say stupid things. Get over it already. I remember when some city council woman called that guy a midget and oh my God was he offended. I have no idea what the differences are between a midget and a dwarf and would make the same mistake. This woman had to resign her job because of it and it was the simple mistake of not knowing the difference. She didnt even mean to offend the guy. That is absolutely ridiculous. Why be so paranoid that you ask the lady to step down. Anyway I am going to get off of my soapbox now because I know that I am going get plenty of grief for my post as it is.

 

Master Baiter,

Since you seem inclined to provoke a response based on your name; I hope that I am not simply wasting my time.

It appears that you are in the majority and have little empathy for the minority, I doubt that you will be a protector of the minority. Thats ok, let others take care of your responsibility for you.

The concept is a simple one. In all cultures, the minorities have a tendency to be mistreated by some in the majority. The rest in the majority should rally against such treatment. It shows a respect for others, regardless of ethinicity, religion, etc.

Some in the majority don't see how racist statements hurt the minority. How they can be dehumanizing and lead to much worse things. You see, its not just that he called some one 'a name', its that he has indicated a diminished respect for someone simply because of their ethnicity. That would indicate a lower respect for his entire ethnicity. That is unacceptable behaviour in this era; I hope you can understand the gravity of the situation and how it differs from when you had to run home to your mommy.

BTW, we 'owe' things to all people around us, not just minorities. For instance, if your majority firend was being attacked, you owe it to them to help them. Thats called 'civilization'.

 

I think it's funny how many people in this thread think they're accurately able to explain why this remark was offensive.

"It's offensive because... because... it OFFENDED people!"

Or changing "Mexican" to "black" when the precise question is, what is intrinsically offensive about the specific phrase Issel used, under the specific circumstances in which it occurred.

Pretzel logic, and hypothetical relativism. Priceless.

This thread could probably have stopped at the point where Jeff lucidly explained exactly why Issel's remarks were offensive:

Most Hispanic people would take serious offense at being called a "f*cking Mexican" because of the speaker's obvious malicious intent and the pejorative use of the word 'Mexican'.

Dan Issel is a f*cking jackass, and yes, I do mean "jackass" in a derogatory way. My apologies to any jackasses reading this thread.

 

Most of what it boils down to is power. White people still are the majority in this country and sill retain the majority of powerful positions in government and business. Those are simply facts.

When someone in power sets another person apart in a negative way because of some defining characteristic that cannot be changed, it automatically places that person and, by default, anyone else who carries that same characteristic, in a position of inferiority in that situation.

So, if someone uses a racial slur to define a person, they are, in essence, defining the entire race. If you add to it the fact that the people using the slur happen to posses much of the power in a defined area (like a country) then you have what the person who has been defined would consider a legitimate threat.

So, in America, if a white man uses a racially deragatory comment towards a black man or Hispanic man, it implies more than just what is said. It is meant to define their positions. It is meant to say, "Not only are you an *******, you are an inferior ******* and you always will be because of your race which is really just a race of assholes."

If that weren't the case and you didn't want to define someone that way, you would just simply call them an ******* and leave it at that. Race would not play a part in it at all.

However, white racial slurs aren't insults because attempting to place those who are already in power in most positions in a place of inferiority by using their race doesn't work. It isn't a threat. It might be in Africa, but it isn't in America because white people do not feel threatened by it.

 

I think to be insulted by name calling is absurd. I think, in many cases, that a person called by a racial slur is offended and insulted only because society tells him/her that he/she should be offended or insulted. We have been uniformly brainwashed as a society to take offense when someone holds our race or gender against us, when what I would be upset about instead is the fact that I have to deal with a close-minded a$$hole. There is an illusion that name calling somehow affects another person, when in fact it is only that person reacting to the illusion that they have been effected. Name calling is sound. There is no excuse in taking offense to it. You're only creating the hurt within yourself.

I also think that something is being overlooked in this situation. There are very likely two a$$holes involved here. Dan Issel, and the a$$hole he got in the argument with. The fact that the guy had his race thrown at him doesn't clear him of any fault. Focusing on Issel's fault in the fight only indicates a sickness that is growing ever larger in our insane little culture.

Wake up, humanity.

 

Issel's comments were Rude, but aren't we a society of Free Speech?

I think that Issel is a jerk, but I would be willing to bet the fan was even worse....will he get fined? Lose his job?

The difference between Issel and the other guy is that Issel is a very public figure, who was performing his very public job in front of thousands of fans and millions of television viewers. He was a representative of the Denver Nuggets on the sidelines. The image of the Nuggets in the community is important, and Issel's actions could have harmed that image. Likewise, the actions of team management towards Issel, rightly or wrongly, reflect on their own attitudes and tolerance towards racism.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you don't face repurcussions for stupid actions, and it doesn't mean that your employer isn't allowed to fire or discipline you if it chooses. It just means that you won't be thrown in jail for it.