Does Any One Contender Have as Big a Weakness as Houston at PG?

lets trade Francis to Boston...then Rockets will be the only team weak at PG position.

 

I would take skip, james, francis, over Terry, Barera, and Harris. Terry is a classic streak shooter that has started off hot. James is very similar, yeah Terry is better, but we have so many options once the season goes on even Aaron Brooks. So I like our overall depth at point compared to the Mavs. Nash, Parker, Deron, those are three of the best in the league they're just fortunate, but they have no Yao or Tmac either.

 

to answer the original question, no, no other contender has that problem cos i would drop rafer like hot dogs to pick rajon

 

I think this is a little overblown. Tracy is going to be bringing the ball up in crunch time.

 

we'll still be playing 4 on 5 either way.

 

The problem is not just that our point guard spot is so weak, but also that the point guard spot of most every other team is so strong. Teams like SA and Dallas can get away with having donut holes at center, because outside of Houston, there’s really no other team that can exploit that weakness at center come playoff time.

Every team has weak spots in their lineup, of course. But you don't want to be weakest at the position where every other team is strongest. It's just like in past eras when the center position reigned supreme. It was very difficult to win without a decent center.

Point guards like Ron Harper, Derek Fisher, Kenny Smith used to be good enough to win championships with because, outside of Stockton and maybe Payton, how many really great point guards were there in the league at that time to punish those teams for being so weak at the point guard position?

Who was the competition that Fisher and Smith faced on most nights? Avery Johnson? Damon Stoudamire? Derek Harper? Solid point guards, but it’s not the same competition that the Rockets are going to face night in and night out (Nash, Baron Davis, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, etc.)

So this is an issue the Rockets are going to have to address down the line. It’s already bitten us in the ass twice in the playoffs (05 when Jason Terry lit us up in the playoffs and last postseason when Deron Williams was killing us).

 

Many - in fact more than there are now

PG's who were great, very good, or very difficult to stop between 1995 and 2001:

John Stockton
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Sam Cassell
Kevin Johnson
Stephon Marbury
Andre Miller
Baron Davis
Steve Francis (old version)
Allen Iverson (yes I know he played SG, but he ran the offense)
Tim Hardaway
Terrell Brandon
Nick Van Exel
Mookie Blaylock
Mark Price

 

I don’t know how you could argue that list of point guards as being stronger than the current crop of point guards in the league. Sam Cassell, Mookie Blaylock, Nick Van Exel, and Terrell Brandon were good point guards in their time, but they would be considered average point guards in the NBA today. Kevin Johnson was injured all the time. If he were healthy, I don’t know if you’d even be able to list Kenny Smith as one of those weak point guards that were good enough to win championships with. Kidd, Marbury, Miller, Davis, and Iverson are all still playing in the NBA today along with many other very good point guards (Nash, Parker, Paul, Williams, Arenas, Billups, Hinrich, Terry, etc.). Not to mention, at least 3/4ths of those guards on your list played on lottery teams for most of their careers. Hardly the point guards teams had to face in the playoffs on their way to winning championships.

 

I wouldn't go that far to list the older point guards as avg for today's game. Especially considering today's game benefits players that face up and drive. The rules of the older NBA had handchecking which would help keep perimeter players at bay (somewhat). Guys like Terrell Brandon, Van Exel, T. Hardaway, etc. could have eaten up the competition would today's rules. Brandon, KJ, young Cassell had killer midrange games to compliment their quickness (which lacks in today's game), so overplaying their drives wouldn't hurt them.

But as far as the our current squad's weakness, every team in the L has one or more. It's up to each team to exploit every other teams' weaknesses and to cover up their own.

 

Let's see Group A:

1. arguably the greatest pure PG of all time (Stockton) 2. arguably the greatest defensive PG of all time and arguably the best all around PG(Payton) 3. Jason Kidd in his prime

vs.

Group B: Tony Parker, Steve Nash, and Jason Terry.

You are honestly making the argument that Group B is better than Group A?

Dude come on, how old are you? These guys are just the second tier of point guards in the late 90's, early 00's - the first tier being the guys listed above. But even they were as good/better as Parker or Terry or even Deron Wiliams.

In his prime, Sam Cassell posted 20+ PER's, to go with 19-9 - that is just average? I'd like for you to tell me which average point guards do that kind of thing today. Thanks.

Mookie Blaylock was a six-time all defensive team member.

Brandon was another 20+ PER guy, who could put up 19-8 for a season - and was probably among the best ball security guys ever - 2.2 turnovers was his career high, usually he averaged under 2 per season.

Nick Van Exel was a pretty deadly scorer, once again, another guy who could give you 20-8

Average? On what basis do you make this judgment other than a purely arbitrary one?

LOL what? He didn't look injured here.

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He averaged 27 and 25 points per game in 94 and 95 playoffs- by far his two best ever playoff performances, and far better thn his season averages those years. Fortunately for us he was "injured"

And in the case of Kidd, Iverson, and Marbury, none of them is the palyer they once used to be 5 years ago. This does not help your case much at all

Really? Sorry, but that's just dead wrong. Let's go down the list, using the criteria of lottery seasons (for example, Terrell Brandon played 10 seasons, went to the playoffs 7 times = did not play on lottery team most of his career) Steve Francis - 1 playoffs in 7 seasons= did play on lottery team for most of his career

John Stockton - did not play on lottery team most of his career
Gary Payton - did not play on lottery team most of his career
Jason Kidd - did not play on lottery team most of his career
Sam Cassell - did not play on lottery team most of his career
Kevin Johnson - did not play on lottery team most of his career
Stephon Marbury - has frequently played on lottery team
Andre Miller - has frequently played on lottery team
Baron Davis - has frequently played on lottery team
Steve Francis (old version) - has frequently played on lottery team
Allen Iverson (yes I know he played SG, but he ran the offense)- did not play on lottery team most of his career
Tim Hardaway- did not play on lottery team most of his career
Terrell Brandon- did not play on lottery team most of his career
Nick Van Exel - did not play on lottery team most of his career
Mookie Blaylock - did not play on lottery team most of his career
Mark Price- did not play on lottery team most of his career

So, of the 15 guys I named, a grand total of 4 were in the lottery for the marority of their career. That is not 3/4. That is a lot closer to 1/4.

Ironically - all of those who did spend the majority of time not going to the playoffs still active today and who you cite as the reason why today's PG's are so great)

Let's take another measure and see who the last point-guard deprived champs beat on their way to the title

2005 Miami - platoon of washed up GP/Jason Williams beat Kirk Hinrich, Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Jason Terry

2001 Lakers - fisher/harper platoon beat Damon Stoudamire, Jason Williams, Antonio Daniels/Avery Johnson and Iverson

1998 Bulls - Harper beat Mark Jackson, John Stockton, BJ Armstrong, Sam Cassell

1995 Rockets - beat John Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Avery Johnson, Anfernee Hardaway

Each of these teams beat HOF's, MVP's and All-Star PG's on their way to the title.

 

we have the best point forward p) in the game today so this weakness isn't really an issue as long as rafer alston brings the ball up fast and efficient and mike james hits his shots.

 

Thats BS...I keep hearing how good rafer gets the ball to yao...that bs....Mike james does just a good a job getting the ball to yao as rafer does,...the problem is when yao starts acting soft, gets pushed to the 3pt line and wanna start his post moves at the top of the arc...then its already a double team on yao, so james can't pass it to yao because yao will get stripped as soon as he touches the ball....

Rafer is pure waste and nothing but a 720 dunk can make me believe otherwise.

 

I think Rockets will be fine at the PG eventually provided that SF3 rides more on bicycles and comes out to play.

 

Lottery teams was incorrect wording on my part. More like mediocre teams. Lower seeded teams that would generally lose in the first round every year. Not the type of teams that Nash, Williams, Parker, Terry, Billups are currently on. The type of teams the Rockets are assuredly going to have to get past in the playoffs.

Brandon, Blaylock, Cassell, and Van Exel were second tier point guards in the 90’s. I would say they’re third tier in the NBA today. Top tier being Nash, Davis, Arenas, and maybe Deron Williams. Admittedly, maybe not quite as strong as Stockton, Payton, and KJ, but pretty close. Nash today is better than Stockton was. At the second tier, I would put Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and Iverson. Brandon, Blaylock, Cassell, and Van Exel are about on the same level as Jason Terry, Hinrich, Marbury, and Barbosa on the third tier.

Brandon really only had two good injury free seasons. The rest of his career, he was either injured for most of the season or a pretty average point guard. I would put him about on par with Andre Miller.

Blacklock was a rock solid point guard, but I would not put him above any of the point guards I listed on the second tier. Offensively, he just didn’t impact the game as much as those point guards.

Cassell’s numbers were inflated a bit after all those seasons in Milwaukee. I like him as a player, but he’s very weak defensively and he just isn’t as good as Parker, Paul, etc. Other than that one season in Minnesota, he was never someone I considered an all star level point guard.

If you’re going to try and argue that Van Exel and his Alston-like 40% career shooting percentages are better than Tony Parker and his +50% shooting percentage, than I don’t know what to say.

Also, it’s flawed to compare all the point guards that played in the span of 6 years to all the point guards playing in only one season.

 

Maybe provide some evidence of this? You just seem to be making arbitrary assertions. I don't feel like going back and doing the math but hte guys I listed went to a lot of finals and conf. championships.

- why, because you said so? I've asked you earlier, and I'll ask you again - who are they akin to today? Is there really a plethora of point guards who can score 19-9 with 2 TO's with a 25 PER in this year's NBA? If those guys are third tier, why has TOny Parker not ever been able to put up a comparable season - I mean the guy has nver had more than 6 assists a game or scored 19 pppg.

I just don't understnad how or why you decided that 5 years ago these were just benefitting from weak competition - weak competition being a bunch of future HOFs? COme on, you are just making that assertion up and you have not provided any backing for it thus far.

Not really that close. Stockton and Payton are all-timers. Nash probably is (on offense, on defense he is a joke). Arenas is fine but he's Iverson-redux and not as fast, IMO.

No, not really - at least Johnny FLopper got to the finals. Which Nash watches on TV.

Well you would put them there but you are just being arbitrary as before. You're putting Parker on the second tier even though he's never put up a season as good as Cassell or Brandon. Hell even Nick the Quick has put up better statistical seasons than Parker.

nice superficial rendition but not really. I hate to break this to you but Miller was playing 7 years ago when the PG selection was mediocre, according to you.

Defensively he changed games - anyway, I don't think you watched him play too much but if you think he was a night off you're wrong.

inflated ... Why? because you said so? LOL, then why can't I say Nash's numbers are inflated or Parkers or Terry's? Once again, you are making arbitrary assertions with no backing.

Well you'd be wrong because he posted good numbers in NJ and Minnesota and Milwaukee ("inflated") etc.

I'm trying to argue that Van Exel at his best was not a night off for opposing point guards. But if you are trying to argue that he and Rafer Alston are comparable players - then I don't know what to say either. I wish it was true because I watched him rip the sh-t out of the Rockets more than a few times.

Fine, then take any given year and we can repeat the same exercise - I will post a bunch of HOF's and superstars, and you will find a reason to arbitrarily declare them weak. (ironic because the general complaint is that the NBA quality of play has declined rather than augmented itself over the last deacde)

PS I did not find your explanatin as to why Miami won a title in 2006, despite being overmatched at PG in every single series they played...and I am still waiting for the Kevin Johnson injury report

 

Dennis Johnson was the point guard for Birds Celtics. He was a great player.

All-Defensive First Team (1979-83, '87); All-Defensive Second Team (1984-86); Five-time NBA All-Star 1979-82, '85).

 

Similar thread in 1995:

Does Any One Contender Have as Big a Weakness as Houston at PF?

Chucky Brown and Pete Chilcutt, going against Karl Malone and Barkley. No one position matters more than any other in basketball. This has always been the case.

 

Weakness?
Skip,MJ,Francis,Brooks?
We're very deep at that position,I don't see no weakness.

 

ROTFLMBO

 

When an overseas opponent rookie PF shot 2/3 3-pointers and our PGs combined for 2/14 on 3 point shootings, Houston, we have a problem.